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Re: Pres Bush II just compared 9/11 hijackers to Jan 6 insurrectionists
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: September 14, 2021 12:32AM
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Re: Pres Bush II just compared 9/11 hijackers to Jan 6 insurrectionists
Posted by: vision63
Date: September 14, 2021 04:36AM
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Re: Pres Bush II just compared 9/11 hijackers to Jan 6 insurrectionists
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: September 14, 2021 09:31AM
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RgrF
Seems to me the Trump outrages are just too recent for some to put in perspective.
Re: Pres Bush II just compared 9/11 hijackers to Jan 6 insurrectionists
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: September 14, 2021 09:45AM
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JoeH
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Lemon Drop
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JoeH
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DeusxMac
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Lemon Drop
3. Dropping an atom bomb on the Japanese. A military science experiment that never would have been done to Europeans. At the end of a war we were going to win.
I suspect most folks are unaware that neither of the two atomic bombs dropped on Japan was the deadliest bombing raid of WWII.
“On the night of 9/10 March 1945, the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) conducted a devastating firebombing raid on Tokyo, the Japanese capital city. This attack was code-named Operation Meetinghouse by the USAAF and is known as the Great Tokyo Air Raid in Japan. Bombs dropped from 279 Boeing B-29 Superfortress heavy bombers burned out much of eastern Tokyo. More than 90,000 and possibly over 100,000 Japanese people were killed, mostly civilians, and one million were left homeless, making it the most destructive single air attack in human history.”
[en.m.wikipedia.org])
The fire storms from bombings of Dresden and other German cities resulted in similar numbers of casualties, so they were not exempt as "Europeans".
And the atomic bombs were planned for use over Europe against Germany, they just were not ready soon enough. By the time they were ready, any need for them being used was already considered unnecessary due to the success of the D-Day invasion and other military actions including the air war. The Soviet forces on the East were also advancing quite steadil
y and quickly.
I am only speaking about atomic weapons. I'm pretty sure we all know about Dresden.
Germany was never going to be the target of the new experimental weapon. As confirmed by the Secretary of War.
Leslie R. Groves, “Memorandum to the Secretary of War,” April 23, 1945, Records of the Manhattan Engineer District, 1942-1948, Record Group 77, National Archives, Washington, D.C.
"Our previous hopes that an implosion type of bomb might be developed in the late spring of 1945 have now been dissipated by scientific difficulties. . . .
“While our plan of operations is based on the more certain, more powerful, gun type bomb, it also provides for the use of the implosion type bombs as soon as they become available. The target is and was always expected to be Japan. A composite group of the 20th Air Force has been organized and specially trained and equipped.”
Leslie R. Groves, Memorandum, “Military Policy Committee,” Records of the Manhattan Engineer District, 1942–1948, Record Group 77, National Archives, Washington, D.C. “MPC Minutes, 5 May 43 mtg”
"The point of use of the first bomb was discussed and the general view appeared to be that its best point of use would be on a Japanese fleet concentration in the Harbor of Truk [in the Pacific, north of New Guinea]. General Styer suggested Tokio but it was pointed out that the bomb should be used where, if it failed to go off, it would land in water of sufficient depth to prevent easy salvage. The Japanese were selected as they would not be so apt to secure knowledge from it as would the Germans.”
By that point in the war there was no need for the bomb in Europe, and they knew that by Summer/Fall of 1944. Your quote is a single source with after the fact rationalizations included. Historians have uncovered older memos during the earlier stages of the project that included targeting of sites in Germany and the issues connected with that. For starters that included the US not having a bomber that could carry the bombs, the B-29 development was not far enough along. They would have needed to acquire Avro Lancaster bombers from the British. There were still development problems with the B-29 into 1944, the Silverplate models to carry the A-bombs did not start being produced until Fall 1944.
Re: Pres Bush II just compared 9/11 hijackers to Jan 6 insurrectionists
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: September 14, 2021 10:01AM
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Lemon Drop
Certainly some of the scientists on the Manhattan project who were European Jews hated Hitler enough to want to use it on Germany. A country they believed was building their own a bomb.
Re: Pres Bush II just compared 9/11 hijackers to Jan 6 insurrectionists
Posted by: RgrF
Date: September 14, 2021 10:07AM
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Re: Pres Bush II just compared 9/11 hijackers to Jan 6 insurrectionists
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: September 14, 2021 10:27AM
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Steve G.
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Lemon Drop
Certainly some of the scientists on the Manhattan project who were European Jews hated Hitler enough to want to use it on Germany. A country they believed was building their own a bomb.
Baseless speculation. Even though there were many American and European Jews who helped to develop the atomic bomb (an American-born uncle of mine among them), they knew they were doing this for America and were no more or less motivated by anti-Nazi or anti-Japanese sentiment than any other American at the time.
Unless you can show some proof of your statement, I suggest you correct it.
Re: Pres Bush II just compared 9/11 hijackers to Jan 6 insurrectionists
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: September 14, 2021 10:46AM
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Lemon Drop
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Steve G.
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Lemon Drop
Certainly some of the scientists on the Manhattan project who were European Jews hated Hitler enough to want to use it on Germany. A country they believed was building their own a bomb.
Baseless speculation. Even though there were many American and European Jews who helped to develop the atomic bomb (an American-born uncle of mine among them), they knew they were doing this for America and were no more or less motivated by anti-Nazi or anti-Japanese sentiment than any other American at the time.
Unless you can show some proof of your statement, I suggest you correct it.
I'd ask for your proof of YOUR very generalized, broad statement. You have no way of knowing all the motivations of every scientist on the project.
Obviously as Germany was America's enemy in WWII, a lot of people wanted to bomb them in some fashion "for America."
At that time nobody would have thought it "unamerican " to want to attack Japan or Germany.
Re: Pres Bush II just compared 9/11 hijackers to Jan 6 insurrectionists
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: September 14, 2021 10:57AM
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Steve G.
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Lemon Drop
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Steve G.
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Lemon Drop
Certainly some of the scientists on the Manhattan project who were European Jews hated Hitler enough to want to use it on Germany. A country they believed was building their own a bomb.
Baseless speculation. Even though there were many American and European Jews who helped to develop the atomic bomb (an American-born uncle of mine among them), they knew they were doing this for America and were no more or less motivated by anti-Nazi or anti-Japanese sentiment than any other American at the time.
Unless you can show some proof of your statement, I suggest you correct it.
I'd ask for your proof of YOUR very generalized, broad statement. You have no way of knowing all the motivations of every scientist on the project.
Obviously as Germany was America's enemy in WWII, a lot of people wanted to bomb them in some fashion "for America."
At that time nobody would have thought it "unamerican " to want to attack Japan or Germany.
and yet, you continue to provide no proof of your statement. At least I had an eye-witness uncle who was there. You seem to want to impute a special malign motivation to The Jews.
Re: Pres Bush II just compared 9/11 hijackers to Jan 6 insurrectionists
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: September 14, 2021 11:12AM
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Lemon Drop
Certainly some of the scientists on the Manhattan project who were European Jews hated Hitler enough to want to use it on Germany. A country they believed was building their own a bomb.
Re: Pres Bush II just compared 9/11 hijackers to Jan 6 insurrectionists
Posted by: JoeH
Date: September 14, 2021 11:48AM
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Lemon Drop
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JoeH
By that point in the war there was no need for the bomb in Europe, and they knew that by Summer/Fall of 1944. Your quote is a single source with after the fact rationalizations included. Historians have uncovered older memos during the earlier stages of the project that included targeting of sites in Germany and the issues connected with that. For starters that included the US not having a bomber that could carry the bombs, the B-29 development was not far enough along. They would have needed to acquire Avro Lancaster bombers from the British. There were still development problems with the B-29 into 1944, the Silverplate models to carry the A-bombs did not start being produced until Fall 1944.
Thanks for your comment Joe, I missed it earlier.
It's my opinion that American political and military leaders never would have used this experimental weapon, particularly once they better understood its destructive capabilities and what radiation might do, on Europeans. Racist attitudes toward the Japanese played a role in a number of things that went on in that era. That doesn't mean nobody ever suggested using it on Germany.
Certainly some of the scientists on the Manhattan project who were European Jews hated Hitler enough to want to use it on Germany. A country they believed was building their own a bomb.
Re: Pres Bush II just compared 9/11 hijackers to Jan 6 insurrectionists
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: September 14, 2021 11:59AM
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Steve G.
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Lemon Drop
Certainly some of the scientists on the Manhattan project who were European Jews hated Hitler enough to want to use it on Germany. A country they believed was building their own a bomb.
Here's what you said, adding a baseless motivation to make it look like an added petty squabble by some European Jews.
Re: Pres Bush II just compared 9/11 hijackers to Jan 6 insurrectionists
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: September 14, 2021 12:59PM
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Re: Pres Bush II just compared 9/11 hijackers to Jan 6 insurrectionists
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: September 14, 2021 01:26PM
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Re: Pres Bush II just compared 9/11 hijackers to Jan 6 insurrectionists
Posted by: RgrF
Date: September 14, 2021 01:45PM
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N-OS X-tasy!
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vision63
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N-OS X-tasy!
Taibbi continues to impress and inspire.
I pretty much hate him. He worked hard to help Trump win.
I don't remember seeing or hearing anything about that. He has always struck me as a liberal.
Re: Pres Bush II just compared 9/11 hijackers to Jan 6 insurrectionists
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: September 14, 2021 01:55PM
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Re: Pres Bush II just compared 9/11 hijackers to Jan 6 insurrectionists
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: September 14, 2021 04:24PM
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RgrF
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N-OS X-tasy!
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vision63
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N-OS X-tasy!
Taibbi continues to impress and inspire.
I pretty much hate him. He worked hard to help Trump win.
I don't remember seeing or hearing anything about that. He has always struck me as a liberal.
He supported Bernie, therefore he cost Hillary the election - that would seem to be the take.
Re: Pres Bush II just compared 9/11 hijackers to Jan 6 insurrectionists
Posted by: vision63
Date: September 14, 2021 09:01PM
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N-OS X-tasy!
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RgrF
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N-OS X-tasy!
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vision63
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N-OS X-tasy!
Taibbi continues to impress and inspire.
I pretty much hate him. He worked hard to help Trump win.
I don't remember seeing or hearing anything about that. He has always struck me as a liberal.
He supported Bernie, therefore he cost Hillary the election - that would seem to be the take.
Makes perfect sense to me that Taibbi would support Bernie.