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Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: p8712
Date: September 14, 2021 04:33PM
Good idea

Quote

Woodward and Costa write that Milley, deeply shaken by the assault, 'was certain that Trump had gone into a serious mental decline in the aftermath of the election, with Trump now all but manic, screaming at officials and constructing his own alternate reality about endless election conspiracies.'
Milley worried that Trump could 'go rogue,' the authors write.

"You never know what a president's trigger point is," Milley told his senior staff, according to the book.

In response, Milley took extraordinary action, and called a secret meeting in his Pentagon office on January 8 to review the process for military action, including launching nuclear weapons. Speaking to senior military officials in charge of the National Military Command Center, the Pentagon's war room, Milley instructed them not to take orders from anyone unless he was involved.

"No matter what you are told, you do the procedure. You do the process. And I'm part of that procedure," Milley told the officers, according to the book. He then went around the room, looked each officer in the eye, and asked them to verbally confirm they understood.
"Got it?" Milley asked, according to the book.

"Yes, sir."
'Milley considered it an oath,' the authors write.
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: hal
Date: September 14, 2021 04:38PM
While putting up walls around Trump is a great idea, Alex Vindman has a point:

Alexander S. Vindman
@AVindman

If this is true GEN Milley must resign. He usurped civilian authority, broke Chain of Command, and violated the sacrosanct principle of civilian control over the military. It’s an extremely dangerous precedent. You can’t simply walk away from that.
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: Acer
Date: September 14, 2021 04:52PM
Quote
hal
While putting up walls around Trump is a great idea, Alex Vindman has a point:

Alexander S. Vindman
@AVindman

If this is true GEN Milley must resign. He usurped civilian authority, broke Chain of Command, and violated the sacrosanct principle of civilian control over the military. It’s an extremely dangerous precedent. You can’t simply walk away from that.

No. Milley was honoring the Constitution by protecting it from a rogue President who was operating outside the Constitution.
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: hal
Date: September 14, 2021 05:08PM
Quote
Acer
Quote
hal
While putting up walls around Trump is a great idea, Alex Vindman has a point:

Alexander S. Vindman
@AVindman

If this is true GEN Milley must resign. He usurped civilian authority, broke Chain of Command, and violated the sacrosanct principle of civilian control over the military. It’s an extremely dangerous precedent. You can’t simply walk away from that.

No. Milley was honoring the Constitution by protecting it from a rogue President who was operating outside the Constitution.

You can't just make up constitutional provisions. The constitution tells us about who the boss is and how he is removed if he operates outside of the constitution. It does not give a general the right to usurp the chain of command because the Prez is a crazy buffoon. Think about the precedent this sets.
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: RgrF
Date: September 14, 2021 05:09PM
Vindman is correct in emphasizing the need for a rigid firewall between military and civilian authority.
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: p8712
Date: September 14, 2021 05:12PM
Quote

If this is true GEN Milley must resign. He usurped civilian authority, broke Chain of Command, and violated the sacrosanct principle of civilian control over the military. It’s an extremely dangerous precedent. You can’t simply walk away from that.

Civilian control over the military is not a suicide pact. Perhaps Vindman would feel differently after spending the last 8 months in a nuclear wasteland created by a toddler's temper tantrum.
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: September 14, 2021 05:16PM
Quote
Acer
Quote
hal
While putting up walls around Trump is a great idea, Alex Vindman has a point:

Alexander S. Vindman
@AVindman

If this is true GEN Milley must resign. He usurped civilian authority, broke Chain of Command, and violated the sacrosanct principle of civilian control over the military. It’s an extremely dangerous precedent. You can’t simply walk away from that.

No. Milley was honoring the Constitution by protecting it from a rogue President who was operating outside the Constitution.

This.

As the Trump situation deteriorated, I came to recognize America's best chance of protecting its democracy rested with its military. While many of the rank-and-file are diehard Trumpers, the top brass - the guys in charge of the military - take their oaths to protect the Constitution of the United States of America VERY seriously. This single oath defines who they are and what they spend their lives doing.

There was no way Trump was going to orchestrate a successful coup without first going through the U.S. military.



It is what it is.
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: Ammo
Date: September 14, 2021 05:22PM
At the time, I was praying that there was at least one person somewhere in the chain of command who was willing to do anything it took to prevent a nuclear war. The stakes were way to high to sit back and trust 45 to do the right thing. Most people think nuclear weapons are just really big bombs that can be survived. Very naive.



Where is there dignity unless there is also honesty? - Cicero

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about. —Wendy Mass
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: September 14, 2021 05:26PM
Quote
hal
Quote
Acer
Quote
hal
While putting up walls around Trump is a great idea, Alex Vindman has a point:

Alexander S. Vindman
@AVindman

If this is true GEN Milley must resign. He usurped civilian authority, broke Chain of Command, and violated the sacrosanct principle of civilian control over the military. It’s an extremely dangerous precedent. You can’t simply walk away from that.

No. Milley was honoring the Constitution by protecting it from a rogue President who was operating outside the Constitution.

You can't just make up constitutional provisions. The constitution tells us about who the boss is and how he is removed if he operates outside of the constitution. It does not give a general the right to usurp the chain of command because the Prez is a crazy buffoon. Think about the precedent this sets.

So say Trump had called for a nuclear strike. You're saying we should have followed through with it because... the Constitution?



It is what it is.
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: RgrF
Date: September 14, 2021 05:29PM
Vindman didn't contend that Milley should not have acted as he did. He was correct in saying that having acted the way he did, it was then incumbent on him as a general officer who stepped beyond his authority to resign.
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: September 14, 2021 05:51PM
Quote
RgrF
Vindman didn't contend that Milley should not have acted as he did. He was correct in saying that having acted the way he did, it was then incumbent on him as a general officer who stepped beyond his authority to resign.

Perhaps. Personally, I'm comforted knowing that we have a guy at the controls who has the stones to do something like this when it's needed and the wisdom to know when it isn't.



It is what it is.
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: September 14, 2021 06:36PM
Supposedly the same happened with Nixon after Watergate blew up in his face.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2021 06:37PM by Bill in NC.
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: September 14, 2021 06:46PM
The general was correct. As having gone through the officer training program myself, I can tell you for a fact that the military does not want robots. Even at the level just below the civilian authority, an officer has the responsibility to do what’s right in the event of an immoral command.This is indoctrinated by our civilian leadership itself. It’s sort of an ultimate safeguard. In lesser countries such blind obedience would be the first step towards fascism if not something more dangerous like nuclear war. The general was doing precisely what he was trained to do and what our civilian leadership (in a broader sense) wants him to do.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2021 06:54PM by Carnos Jax.
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: RgrF
Date: September 14, 2021 07:58PM
Quote
Carnos Jax
The general was correct. As having gone through the officer training program myself, I can tell you for a fact that the military does not want robots. Even at the level just below the civilian authority, an officer has the responsibility to do what’s right in the event of an immoral command.This is indoctrinated by our civilian leadership itself. It’s sort of an ultimate safeguard. In lesser countries such blind obedience would be the first step towards fascism if not something more dangerous like nuclear war. The general was doing precisely what he was trained to do and what our civilian leadership (in a broader sense) wants him to do.

So should he have then turned in his resignation?
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: deckeda
Date: September 14, 2021 08:01PM
I’m good with what he did; he recognized an idiot with power and worked to neutralize it for safety. What I am not OK is that he still managed to take the road so very high that he never said one thing Trump needed to be told: No.

Milley’s an enabler. He can not like Trump all he wants but I don’t care who he likes and doesn’t like. And I’m not convinced with the, “But you’d be sorry if someone worse got in there!” mindset every other enabler effected by simply agreeing to be either employed by Trump, nominated or otherwise approved by Trump. Not everyone will be a yes-man, but there’s a fine line between being passive miserableness and sycophant.

“Don’t box in the president” is wise, but he did just that by circumventing Trump’s potential for an attack. The issue isn’t that he called up China, it’s that he allowed himself to be put in that position at all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2021 08:04PM by deckeda.
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: September 14, 2021 08:15PM
It's unfortunate that this news has to be brought to light now, given the fact that states feel emboldened to abrogate scotus rulings. While I admire the huevos, I worry about the slippery slope.
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: $tevie
Date: September 14, 2021 09:27PM
Quote
deckeda
I’m good with what he did; he recognized an idiot with power and worked to neutralize it for safety. What I am not OK is that he still managed to take the road so very high that he never said one thing Trump needed to be told: No.

Milley’s an enabler. He can not like Trump all he wants but I don’t care who he likes and doesn’t like. And I’m not convinced with the, “But you’d be sorry if someone worse got in there!” mindset every other enabler effected by simply agreeing to be either employed by Trump, nominated or otherwise approved by Trump. Not everyone will be a yes-man, but there’s a fine line between being passive miserableness and sycophant.

“Don’t box in the president” is wise, but he did just that by circumventing Trump’s potential for an attack. The issue isn’t that he called up China, it’s that he allowed himself to be put in that position at all.
Every story that comes out describing how someone or other knew TFG was batshit crazy, and tried to circumvent him or control him or whatever, just makes me more and more upset that they chose to keep it from the public and wait for books by themselves or others to tell about it. For crying out loud, if all these passive aggressive people had come forward during TFG's term and told the press perhaps it wouldn't have changed anything -- but perhaps it would have. Instead we have them to thank for two failed convictions upon impeachment.



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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: September 14, 2021 09:50PM
Quote
RgrF
Quote
Carnos Jax
The general was correct. As having gone through the officer training program myself, I can tell you for a fact that the military does not want robots. Even at the level just below the civilian authority, an officer has the responsibility to do what’s right in the event of an immoral command.This is indoctrinated by our civilian leadership itself. It’s sort of an ultimate safeguard. In lesser countries such blind obedience would be the first step towards fascism if not something more dangerous like nuclear war. The general was doing precisely what he was trained to do and what our civilian leadership (in a broader sense) wants him to do.

So should he have then turned in his resignation?

No.



It is what it is.
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: September 14, 2021 09:58PM
Quote
$tevie
Quote
deckeda
I’m good with what he did; he recognized an idiot with power and worked to neutralize it for safety. What I am not OK is that he still managed to take the road so very high that he never said one thing Trump needed to be told: No.

Milley’s an enabler. He can not like Trump all he wants but I don’t care who he likes and doesn’t like. And I’m not convinced with the, “But you’d be sorry if someone worse got in there!” mindset every other enabler effected by simply agreeing to be either employed by Trump, nominated or otherwise approved by Trump. Not everyone will be a yes-man, but there’s a fine line between being passive miserableness and sycophant.

“Don’t box in the president” is wise, but he did just that by circumventing Trump’s potential for an attack. The issue isn’t that he called up China, it’s that he allowed himself to be put in that position at all.

Every story that comes out describing how someone or other knew TFG was batshit crazy, and tried to circumvent him or control him or whatever, just makes me more and more upset that they chose to keep it from the public and wait for books by themselves or others to tell about it. For crying out loud, if all these passive aggressive people had come forward during TFG's term and told the press perhaps it wouldn't have changed anything -- but perhaps it would have. Instead we have them to thank for two failed convictions upon impeachment.

Answer honestly, $tevie: Assuming a scenario that played out as you describe above, do you truly believe the effort(s!) to impeach Trump would have ended any differently? I don't.

If I'm not mistaken, the Chief of Staff serves at the pleasure of the President. It makes perfect sense to me that Milley would not want to do anything to antagonize Trump to the point that he would be removed from the one position where he would best be able to protect America's interests. If Milley had been fired, who's to say that Trump wouldn't have tried to fill the position with a lackey? Now THAT'S a thought that would keep me up at night.



It is what it is.
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: mattkime
Date: September 14, 2021 11:08PM
Generally speaking, I agree with $tevie but the guy guarding the nuclear weapons plays by slightly different rules IMO. Thats a guy who I want to be Trump's yes man right up until he isn't. He makes it clear any earlier and they'd find some reason, ANY REASON, to get rid of him.



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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: Speedy
Date: September 15, 2021 05:13AM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
$tevie
Quote
deckeda
I’m good with what he did; he recognized an idiot with power and worked to neutralize it for safety. What I am not OK is that he still managed to take the road so very high that he never said one thing Trump needed to be told: No.

Milley’s an enabler. He can not like Trump all he wants but I don’t care who he likes and doesn’t like. And I’m not convinced with the, “But you’d be sorry if someone worse got in there!” mindset every other enabler effected by simply agreeing to be either employed by Trump, nominated or otherwise approved by Trump. Not everyone will be a yes-man, but there’s a fine line between being passive miserableness and sycophant.

“Don’t box in the president” is wise, but he did just that by circumventing Trump’s potential for an attack. The issue isn’t that he called up China, it’s that he allowed himself to be put in that position at all.

Every story that comes out describing how someone or other knew TFG was batshit crazy, and tried to circumvent him or control him or whatever, just makes me more and more upset that they chose to keep it from the public and wait for books by themselves or others to tell about it. For crying out loud, if all these passive aggressive people had come forward during TFG's term and told the press perhaps it wouldn't have changed anything -- but perhaps it would have. Instead we have them to thank for two failed convictions upon impeachment.

Answer honestly, $tevie: Assuming a scenario that played out as you describe above, do you truly believe the effort(s!) to impeach Trump would have ended any differently? I don't.

If I'm not mistaken, the Chief of Staff serves at the pleasure of the President. It makes perfect sense to me that Milley would not want to do anything to antagonize Trump to the point that he would be removed from the one position where he would best be able to protect America's interests. If Milley had been fired, who's to say that Trump wouldn't have tried to fill the position with a lackey? Now THAT'S a thought that would keep me up at night.

Pres. Trump fired the civilian leadership at the DoD just before the insurrection. That looked damned suspicious and was worrisome to me. I’m glad the general did what he did to minimize any risk to the world from the madman-in-chief.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: deckeda
Date: September 15, 2021 06:03AM
Trump filled every position he could with lackeys already. And the result was that worked against him too, as the criticism they drew also served to help neutralize them.

Every person who felt they were quietly saving the world from Trump never actually did that. All they did was placate and avoid confrontation and waited for him to be distracted elsewhere. If they and their replacements told him no HE would have been neutralized and powerless. I’m not saying it would have happened — he certainly attracted the worst of the worst —- but it also attracted these types who thought they would be the one to reign him in. They alone would be that backstop. They alone could protect us. They alone. Really?

For all his spinelessness Pence came closest by telling Trump he could not effect his coup. And that’s a very low bar for “standing up to Trump.”
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: sekker
Date: September 15, 2021 11:38AM
Given the context - the potential to annihilate all humanity on the planet - I think Milley did the right thing. He wasn't 'just' defending the Constitution, but our entire globe.

Note that this was not after the lost election, but after the failed coup attempt - where the President clearly showed he was NOT following his duties to the Constitution. He SHOULD have been impeached then and there.
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: September 15, 2021 12:18PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Answer honestly, $tevie: Assuming a scenario that played out as you describe above, do you truly believe the effort(s!) to impeach Trump would have ended any differently? I don't.

I don't either.

Republicans would rather destroy the country/world than relinquish power.
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: September 15, 2021 12:24PM
Quote
sekker
Given the context - the potential to annihilate all humanity on the planet - I think Milley did the right thing. He wasn't 'just' defending the Constitution, but our entire globe.

Note that this was not after the lost election, but after the failed coup attempt - where the President clearly showed he was NOT following his duties to the Constitution. He SHOULD have been impeached then and there.

The framers of the Constitution never in their wildest dreams imagined an American president could have the power to destroy the world at a moment's whim. If they had, they may have approached the question of how to remove an American president from power differently than they did.



It is what it is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2021 12:25PM by N-OS X-tasy!.
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: September 15, 2021 04:57PM
Perhaps the answer is to remove the power of any one person to order anything other than a retaliatory nuclear strike.

Russia, China, or San Marino launches on us, then the president may order an equivalent return strike. However, no one person may order a nuclear strike in any other situation. The decision-makers would include the President, Senate President, Speaker of the House, Chief Justice, and one individual appoint by the previous administration - a strike requires the vote of the President and three of the four others. That makeup ensures that all three branches are represented as well one completely independent of the current government.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

Growing older is mandatory. Growing up is optional.
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: sekker
Date: September 15, 2021 05:07PM
Quote
Ombligo
Perhaps the answer is to remove the power of any one person to order anything other than a retaliatory nuclear strike.

Russia, China, or San Marino launches on us, then the president may order an equivalent return strike. However, no one person may order a nuclear strike in any other situation. The decision-makers would include the President, Senate President, Speaker of the House, Chief Justice, and one individual appoint by the previous administration - a strike requires the vote of the President and three of the four others. That makeup ensures that all three branches are represented as well one completely independent of the current government.

Given that return strikes are almost always designed to be ordered BEFORE the initial strike lands, what happens when the initial strike is fake news?
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: pdq
Date: September 16, 2021 09:49AM
I think it’s worth noting that what Miley did, that has MAGAts (and Trump) screaming “treason” was just reminding the top folks in the military chain of the standard procedures in the extreme case of nuclear weapons, and emphasizing that those procedures should be followed.
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: September 16, 2021 10:38AM
Milley could have just toed the party line relying on the 'I was just following orders' [ I Carried Out the Orders I Was Given ] defense.

And if his fears came to pass, there'd be no one left to say 'Hey, that didn't work out so well for Calley.

Oooooh, they both had IIs in their names!

Spooky!

See what happens when you connect the dots!!

I blame Obama and Biden!





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2021 10:39AM by RAMd®d.
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: RgrF
Date: September 16, 2021 11:28AM
Quote
pdq
I think it’s worth noting that what Miley did, that has MAGAts (and Trump) screaming “treason” was just reminding the top folks in the military chain of the standard procedures in the extreme case of nuclear weapons, and emphasizing that those procedures should be followed.

Not sure that picking up the phone, speaking to his Chinese counterpart while not informing his civilian chain of command would be considered following procedure.
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: September 16, 2021 01:29PM
Quote
RAMd®d
Milley could have just toed the party line relying on the 'I was just following orders' [ I Carried Out the Orders I Was Given ] defense.

The Nuremberg defense

"The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him."
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: vision63
Date: September 16, 2021 02:42PM
Why is resigning always the 'punishment?" There are a thousand ways to punish someone. Flogging, running laps, Hail Mary's.
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: RgrF
Date: September 16, 2021 03:34PM
Quote
vision63
Why is resigning always the 'punishment?" There are a thousand ways to punish someone. Flogging, running laps, Hail Mary's.

...reading Vision threads? smiley-music039
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Re: Milley took secret action to protect nuclear weapons
Posted by: vision63
Date: September 16, 2021 10:14PM
Quote
RgrF
Quote
vision63
Why is resigning always the 'punishment?" There are a thousand ways to punish someone. Flogging, running laps, Hail Mary's.

...reading Vision threads? smiley-music039

Welp! smiley-music039
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