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Should Hospitals treat AntiVaxxers like DNRs
Posted by: Rolando
Date: September 15, 2021 10:17PM
They have already refused preventative treatment, and are now displacing those who need bed?
[www.npr.org]
A Man Died After Being Turned Away From 43 ICUs At Capacity Due To COVID, Family Says

I hold every person who is hospitalized with COVID and refused vaccination responsible!

Why don't the ERs ask for a vaccination card "so they can offer appropriate treatment"?



San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater
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Re: Should Hospitals treat AntiVaxxers like DNRs
Posted by: bfd
Date: September 15, 2021 10:49PM
Comes a little close, in ways, to refusing medical care to the indigent, the undocumented, the obese, the mentally challenged… it gets sticky.
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Re: Should Hospitals treat AntiVaxxers like DNRs
Posted by: p8712
Date: September 15, 2021 10:59PM
DNRs still receive medical treatment….
You’re usually sick for days or weeks before you code.
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Re: Should Hospitals treat AntiVaxxers like DNRs
Posted by: mattkime
Date: September 15, 2021 11:02PM
Are our medical ethics standards able to address pandemic concerns?



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Re: Should Hospitals treat AntiVaxxers like DNRs
Posted by: RgrF
Date: September 16, 2021 12:25AM
Quote
bfd
Comes a little close, in ways, to refusing medical care to the indigent, the undocumented, the obese, the mentally challenged… it gets sticky.

MDs are taught and assumed not to be judgmental for a reason, hospitals aren't police functionaries. It would establish a medical precedent that would be a bit troublesome and more than problematic in the future.
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Re: Should Hospitals treat AntiVaxxers like DNRs
Posted by: Racer X
Date: September 16, 2021 12:29AM
down the road, very likely to bite everyone in the ass.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
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Re: Should Hospitals treat AntiVaxxers like DNRs
Posted by: Lizabeth
Date: September 16, 2021 06:01AM
I see no reason for MDs' not to be VERY BLUNT to patients about WHY they ended up in the hospital to start with as far as COVID.

I just hope I don't have to go to an ER anytime soon.
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Re: Should Hospitals treat AntiVaxxers like DNRs
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: September 16, 2021 06:06AM
Quote
mattkime
Are our medical ethics standards able to address pandemic concerns?

Triage processes do NOT take any external factors into consideration.

[en.wikipedia.org]

I will note that while hospitals train in mass casualty situations, I don't think most training considered mass pandemic situations. Of course they've all gotten major life experience from Wave 1 on. Now we are in Wave.... 4 ? The 1918 flu (H1N1) only had three major waves in the US.

Remember people... IMHO ALL of the deaths in the US from COVID-19 can be laid at the bloody hands of the Republican Party and their propaganda apparatus. Failure to act responsibly, profiteering and outright fraud, laws removing health rules, and misinformation are the proximate causes of over 650,000 deaths.
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Re: Should Hospitals treat AntiVaxxers like DNRs
Posted by: pdq
Date: September 16, 2021 09:06AM
Just to be clear, this was not a man refused ICU care because he was not vaccinated (which is the way I first mis-read it).

He had a cardiac event, not Covid, and an ICU bed was unavailable because of all the Covid cases.

(Duh. Read the article.)

Just hoping others didn’t get the wrong impression like me.
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Re: Should Hospitals treat AntiVaxxers like DNRs
Posted by: deckeda
Date: September 16, 2021 09:16AM
They take ‘em as they come. But if you don’t schedule or cancel a scheduled procedure due to a Covid patient coming in, you’re effectively NOT planning anything and not adhering to first come, first served.

It’s an emergency, yes. But at some point when everything’s an emergency nothing is, and new considerations are valid. The question is whether or not you admit patients who have been lied to by government and then willfully disdain help for themselves as a lifestyle. But where comparisons to eating steak, smoking cigarettes or being drunk do not apply is because they aren’t contagious.

Republicans politicized the pandemic and also shuttered hospitals in rural areas. And now more urban areas are stressed to the limit. They should pay for that ideology. It’s fair to deny them. Cause, effect. Don’t vote Republican. Show proof you didn’t buy into it if you don’t want to pay the cost. Call it political triage, but it’s the end game.
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Re: Should Hospitals treat AntiVaxxers like DNRs
Posted by: deckeda
Date: September 16, 2021 09:17AM
Quote
pdq
Just to be clear, this was not a man refused ICU care because he was not vaccinated (which is the way I first mis-read it).

He had a cardiac event, not Covid, and an ICU bed was unavailable because of all the Covid cases.

(Duh. Read the article.)

Just hoping others didn’t get the wrong impression like me.

I understood that because I’d read it last week. His freedom to find an available bed was deleted by many others.
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Re: Should Hospitals treat AntiVaxxers like DNRs
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: September 16, 2021 09:55AM
Should Hospitals treat AntiVaxxers like DNRs


DNRs were addressed above, but I take your meaning.

And no, they shouldn't.

It's easy to have the gut reaction that non- and anti-vaxxers should pay a price, but that's not a medical professional's job.

That's not triage.

That's deciding who merits medical care.


I see no reason for MDs' not to be VERY BLUNT to patients about WHY they ended up in the hospital to start with as far as COVID.

I just hope I don't have to go to an ER anytime soon.



I heartily agree, 'Your selfishness is killing innocent people'.

And 'there will be a big bill coming your way, should you live'.

I find it impossible to have any respect for people who willfully eschew prevention via vaccine and happily promote random off the shelf one weird trick substances as prophylaxis or cures.

I'm not devoid of some measure of sympathy.

Otherwise why not just gauge a anti-vaxxers chance of recovery and when it falls below a threshold, PTS them and make room for somebody 'more deserving'.

That's a true slippery slope of which I'd want no part.





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Should Hospitals treat AntiVaxxers like DNRs
Posted by: TheCaber
Date: September 16, 2021 12:55PM
DNR (Do Not Resuscitate) has been conflated with DNT (Do Not Treat) too often, and vice versa.

They are NOT the same thing.

Be very careful in the wording of your health care directives.



=TC
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Re: Should Hospitals treat AntiVaxxers like DNRs
Posted by: Buzz
Date: September 16, 2021 02:17PM
Set up "Non-Vaxxed" wards in parking lots adjacent to hospitals, and treat the idiots there after the vaxxed patients inside the hospital are taken care of. IOW, let patients self-select their level of care. Select not to vax, and you know where, and how you'll be treated if you end up in the hospital, er, in the hospital parking lot's Idiot Ward. Select to vax, and you'll get better healthcare because the non-vaxxed are no longer siphoning off resources that could impact your healthcare. It's individual's choice, not the doctors', the hospitals', the politicians', or anybody else's choice.

Just do it.
==
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Re: Should Hospitals treat AntiVaxxers like DNRs
Posted by: Ted King
Date: September 16, 2021 02:46PM
I appreciate the philosophy behind triage where there is not enough medical capacity to treat all those in need - put those limited medical efforts into that which is most likely going to produce the most medical benefit. Fundamentally, this ethos is a utilitarian one - do the greatest good for the most number of people. But there are other ethical claims that can be considered relevant.

The medical community generally tries very hard to adhere to the utilitarian ethos over other ethical concerns. That is the way it is, but just because that is the way it is does not in itself imply that that is the way it should be. Though the "what ought we do" question is full of slippery slope considerations - which is probably partially why the medical community defaults to a utilitarian ethos - that doesn't mean that the "what ought we do" question should be pushed aside.



e pluribus unum



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2021 02:49PM by Ted King.
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Re: Should Hospitals treat AntiVaxxers like DNRs
Posted by: RgrF
Date: September 16, 2021 11:40PM
A note left on the hospital staff whiteboard by Dr. Kenneth Krell, director of eastern Idaho’s largest intensive care unit.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2021 12:04AM by RgrF.
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Re: Should Hospitals treat AntiVaxxers like DNRs
Posted by: Mr645
Date: September 17, 2021 06:41AM
Same for smokers, drug users, obese, perhaps those that engage in dangerous activities like motorcycle riding, get in a crash? Hey, your fault, right?
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Re: Should Hospitals treat AntiVaxxers like DNRs
Posted by: deckeda
Date: September 17, 2021 11:48AM
Customer Service 101

1) Don’t say no.
2) Say, we are unable to do that at this time.
3) There is no Step 3.
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Re: Should Hospitals treat AntiVaxxers like DNRs
Posted by: deckeda
Date: September 17, 2021 11:48AM
Quote
Mr645
Same for smokers, drug users, obese, perhaps those that engage in dangerous activities like motorcycle riding, get in a crash? Hey, your fault, right?

Perhaps, after they become contagious.
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Re: Should Hospitals treat AntiVaxxers like DNRs
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: September 17, 2021 01:11PM
WOW!

Dr. Krell is quite the wordsmith.

(and writes like a doctor! LOL)

Ordinary people doing heroic things.





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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