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France is PISSED OFF! Recalling ambassadors from USA and Australia
Posted by: hal
Date: September 17, 2021 02:55PM
To be honest, I haven't even bothered to read why France is so mad. USA and Aust form a nuke sub alliance. France and Aust had some kind of deal going that fell through (?) or something... I dunno... maybe if I read up on it I could understand France's anger, but right now, I'm just kinda rolling my eyes... and I don't really care. WHy did I even post this?
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Re: France is PISSED OFF! Recalling ambassadors from USA and Australia
Posted by: rgG
Date: September 17, 2021 03:02PM
Yeah, the French are not happy because they were supposed to be building the Aussie’s submarines and the US swooped in, with no notice or warning, as far as they are saying but who knows, and took the contract. Apparently we gave them, my guess, a sweetheart deal, so they can keep tabs on China for us, since they are a lot closer to China than we are.
Do the Brits or the Aussies give a rat’s ass what the French think, probably not. grinning smiley
I told my husband that we were using Australia like Russia used Cuba.





Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)
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Re: France is PISSED OFF! Recalling ambassadors from USA and Australia
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: September 17, 2021 03:30PM
France needs us a lot more than we need them.
They'll be back soon.

A bientot!
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Re: France is PISSED OFF! Recalling ambassadors from USA and Australia
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: September 17, 2021 03:55PM
Multiple sources on this story, of course, but here's a good one

[www.npr.org]
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Re: France is PISSED OFF! Recalling ambassadors from USA and Australia
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: September 17, 2021 04:27PM
I don't really care. WHy did I even post this?


I was wondering the same thing.



Yeah, the French are not happy because they were supposed to be building the Aussie’s submarines and the US swooped in, with no notice or warning, as far as they are saying but who knows, and took the contract. Apparently we gave them, my guess, a sweetheart deal, so they can keep tabs on China for us, since they are a lot closer to China than we are.
Do the Brits or the Aussies give a rat’s ass what the French think, probably not. grinning smiley
I told my husband that we were using Australia like Russia used Cuba.



This has actually been a small plot line in a few Brit and Aussie TV shows. which I thought was interesting.

Still and all, allies deserve a little consideration at the very least.

But we take what we want 'cause we're 'Mecians.

And if France stole a deal out from under us, we'd understand and not sweat a loss of jobs because — say it out loud — we're 'Mericans, and dammit everybody loves us — we matter!

The frogs can eat our Velveeta!





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: France is PISSED OFF! Recalling ambassadors from USA and Australia
Posted by: RgrF
Date: September 17, 2021 04:31PM
Brits have supported US foreign policy without question (remember Tony Blair?), the French not so much (remember Freedom Fries?)
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Re: France is PISSED OFF! Recalling ambassadors from USA and Australia
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: September 17, 2021 06:02PM
Quote
RgrF
...the French not so much (remember Freedom Fries?)

Remember why?



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Re: France is PISSED OFF! Recalling ambassadors from USA and Australia
Posted by: RgrF
Date: September 17, 2021 08:08PM
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
RgrF
...the French not so much (remember Freedom Fries?)

Remember why?

Freedom Fries thing was a good example of the lack of critical thinking and knee-jerk reaction that dominates much of conservative/right-wing politics. French had the right take about our Iraq misadventure, Blair played lapdog.
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Re: France is PISSED OFF! Recalling ambassadors from USA and Australia
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: September 17, 2021 08:13PM
Australia is a regional power, it has no need for a nuclear sub. The only reason the US uses nukes is to give it a worldwide transit ability. Nukes are noisier than electric boats and therefore not as effective in the south china sea.

I'm on France's side in this one.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

Growing older is mandatory. Growing up is optional.
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Re: France is PISSED OFF! Recalling ambassadors from USA and Australia
Posted by: RgrF
Date: September 17, 2021 08:39PM
Quote
Ombligo
Australia is a regional power, it has no need for a nuclear sub. The only reason the US uses nukes is to give it a worldwide transit ability. Nukes are noisier than electric boats and therefore not as effective in the south china sea.

I'm on France's side in this one.

Strikes me as a money deal, French military contractors don't cannot contribute to US political parties, domestic arms dealers* can.

* warship construction is part and parcel of worldwide arms trade - just done on a different level.
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Re: France is PISSED OFF! Recalling ambassadors from USA and Australia
Posted by: deckeda
Date: September 17, 2021 10:43PM
France lost a $66B arms deal. They’re angry at us since we brokered it with Australia, which was still who made the decision.

My takeaways are that this was strategic for the U.S. and not a “we don’t like France” move, and that the arms deal was ultimately not OURS with France. But they acted as if we started a war with them.

I’m no mood for pouting.
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Re: France is PISSED OFF! Recalling ambassadors from USA and Australia
Posted by: pdq
Date: September 18, 2021 08:49AM
France is also mad because they didn’t get as much as a single heads-up. In fact, there were active efforts to keep it secret from them.

I read that someone in the administration said they kept it a secret because they knew France wouldn’t like it. That’s what you do to a competitor in business, not America’s oldest ally.

And what policy does this ostensibly further? To rattle swords at the Chinese? We may not like some of China’s domestic policies, but they don’t seem to bother us enough to stop trading with them as the US’s largest source of imports. Must we always need a designated bogeyman?

This reminds me of Obama’s unexpected, inexplicable endorsement of new oil drilling in the gulf back in the day, which became public just before the Deepwater Horizon disaster. He probably didn’t gain a single Republican vote through this wrong-headed crap, but he ended up owning some of the Deepwater Horizon dirt.

As if to underline this point, the National Review says

U.S. Pact with Australia Is Good News

This is another unforced error on Biden’s part. And when karma strikes back on this one and the @#$%& hits the fan, the GOP is going to use it as campaign fodder against him.
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Re: France is PISSED OFF! Recalling ambassadors from USA and Australia
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: September 18, 2021 09:26AM
Quote
pdq
This is another unforced error on Biden’s part...

Not so sure about that.

He's fixing something 45 broke. We have no presence in the Pacific and China is getting very aggressive there, both with their military and with economic/vaccine diplomacy. They have been preparing for war on several fronts while we withdrew troops and aid from critical regions. This is reminiscent of how we were caught with our pants down and dropped into WWII.

France had a deal to provide diesel subs to Australia and this deal was scuttled in favor of the US/UK atomic sub deal. The new subs are far superior to anything the Australians had before and it's a great strategic step. The French government has to recognize the benefit, but at the same time they're losing a $65 billion deal. A little grandstanding... They needed to cover their asses. This is how they did it.



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Re: France is PISSED OFF! Recalling ambassadors from USA and Australia
Posted by: pdq
Date: September 18, 2021 01:04PM
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
pdq
This is another unforced error on Biden’s part...

Not so sure about that.

He's fixing something 45 broke. We have no presence in the Pacific...

Oh, come on, S - really? We have naval deployments everywhere:

6/20: The United States on Wednesday said that deployment of three of its 11 nuclear aircraft carriers to the Pacific Ocean is not in response to any world or political events but was done to "promote security, stability and prosperity throughout the Indo-Pacific region."

8/30/21: 6 Naval Task Groups From U.S., U.K., India, Japan and Australia Underway in Pacific

Currently operating in the region are the Navy’s Carl Vinson Carrier Strike Group and Japan-based America Expeditionary Strike Group, the U.K. Royal Navy’s Queen Elizabeth Carrier Strike Group 21 (CSG 21), Australian Defense Force Indo-Pacific Endeavour 21 (IPE 21) task group, Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) Indo-Pacific Deployment 2021 (IPD21) force and the Indian Navy Eastern Fleet task group.

No specific word about the deployments of the 68 nuclear powered subs the US has, because, y'know, they're largely undetectable.

I like Biden, I do; a hundred million times better than Trump, but he's been tripping over his own feet lately, largely in carrying out the dumb ideas set in motion by the last guy.
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Re: France is PISSED OFF! Recalling ambassadors from USA and Australia
Posted by: numbered
Date: September 18, 2021 01:36PM
OK, come on, read up on the timeline....

--France and Oz agree to 60-70 gigadollar diesel boat deal because no one will sell nukes to Oz not even the French

--Construction was problematic, delayed, and the price was rising. While this was typical for big deals like this, Oz was an unhappy customer of France. The French just thought they were haggling and were captive

--Oz has a new government that is more concerned about China and Chinese initiatives in their part of the world. They believed that the new boats would not show up until the 2030s and be obsolete from the date of commissioning

--Oz approached the UK to buy nukes after all. They were willing to deal with internal to Oz anti-nuke feelings to get a better mousetrap

--The Brits took this to the US because technology

--The US said you first need to talk to the French. Oz was worried that the French and Chinese would scuttle their deal to get first class equipment if it became public

--The Bidens, Boris, and Oz made a deal. Yes the US is willing to share the tech (basically, reactors) because we are more concerned about China than we were back in the day. This is Biden's sin for sure

--France is in a snit because they lost a big arms deal. They misunderstood the position of Oz. And they want to take it out on us.


This is not anti France. But neither is it a screw up. Just like the Afghan withdrawal was not a screw up, no matter what the self righteous media said. The customer was unhappy and sought a new vendor. The customer preferred silence to keep the deal from unraveling before it was a thing.
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Re: France is PISSED OFF! Recalling ambassadors from USA and Australia
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: September 18, 2021 02:25PM
Quote
pdq
Oh, come on, S - really? We have naval deployments everywhere

Work in progress.

There's a big gap to fill. The Australia deal is a tiny part of it.



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Re: France is PISSED OFF! Recalling ambassadors from USA and Australia
Posted by: testcase
Date: September 18, 2021 05:00PM
Good riddance and, NO "backsies"
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Re: France is PISSED OFF! Recalling ambassadors from USA and Australia
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: September 18, 2021 05:43PM
France has made a lot of money with nuclear tech over the decades. About 71% of France's power generation is from nuclear, so they have experience and credibility.

I'd be pissed off, too.
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Re: France is PISSED OFF! Recalling ambassadors from USA and Australia
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: September 19, 2021 08:15PM
Australia says France knew of ‘grave’ submarine concerns
https: //apnews.com/article/joe-biden-business-china-europe-australia-391ff990f7eba2b16070c8399aea73aa

France had already started spending on building the infrastructure and now it's redundant. Over cost, behind schedule, and not up to specs. Typical defense contract performance. $66 billion means there would have been a lot of graft to spread around. My guess is every major political party lost several million in donations from lobbyists now out of a job.



In tha 360. MRF User Map
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Re: France is PISSED OFF! Recalling ambassadors from USA and Australia
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: September 19, 2021 09:47PM
Quote
numbered
OK, come on, read up on the timeline....

--France and Oz agree to 60-70 gigadollar diesel boat deal because no one will sell nukes to Oz not even the French

--Construction was problematic, delayed, and the price was rising. While this was typical for big deals like this, Oz was an unhappy customer of France. The French just thought they were haggling and were captive

Thanks. I thought the deal with the French were for nuclear subs. This is different.
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