We do not have open borders, yet tens of thousands of people keep coming.
It seems wrong to send people back to Haiti, because of so many reasons, but we do not have open borders.
Our Congress has for decades refused to make hard decisions about immigration reform, so we now have out dated laws that various administrations have either ignored or enforced or taken some hybrid type of approach.
While I feel for all the immigrants making their way here, I can also say that I would not want to be living in a border town with thousands of people camped out under a bridge a mile or two away, especially during a pandemic.
What is the answer?
Our bureaucracy is so broken I don’t see how hardly anyone could figure out how to get here legally, especially if you were not well off or well connected.
I honestly don’t know what our policy should be, but we need to figure something out because what we are doing isn’t working.

---

Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)

Imagine if we had spent a fraction of the several trillion dollars we spent on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars on investments in infrastructure for our neighbors to the South.

---

e pluribus unum

"We do not have open borders" SERIOUSLY?????

U.S. borders, especially the Southern border is like a sieve.

I't been awhile but, the last numbers I read for LEGAL immigration was that OVER ONE MILLION legal immigrants were LAWFULLY admitted EACH YEAR.

When an illegal sneaks in, they are committing a FELONY. The "American Dream" is weakened by illegals for all those who "jumped through the hoops" to enter legally.

The U.S. also sends MILLIONS of dollars abroad EACH year to help those in need.

Perhaps immigration courts that function efficiently, fairly, and humanely.

Quote
btfc
Perhaps immigration courts that function efficiently, fairly, and humanely.

Not gonna find that here!

---

San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater

Quote
btfc
Perhaps immigration courts that function efficiently, fairly, and humanely.

I can’t even imagine how many courts we would need to handle cases in a timely manner.

---

Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)

Quote
rgG

Quote
btfc
Perhaps immigration courts that function efficiently, fairly, and humanely.

I can’t even imagine how many courts we would need to handle cases in a timely manner.

More than we will ever have. To handle an essentially unlimited number of immigrants you would need to setup some sort of a triage/screening process that provided real time information and decisions in a process that could be done in a few hours.

Given that we can't get that level of service at a DMV or for Firearms purchases I highly doubt we would ever be able to do that for Immigration.

---

C(-)ris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Throwback Thursday Signature:

Quote
Ted King
Imagine if we had spent a fraction of the several trillion dollars we spent on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars on investments in infrastructure for our neighbors to the South.

We have a military budget that is twice the combined budgets of Russia, China, France, North Korea, South Korea, Great Britain and Australia. We just decided to spend a trillion+ dollars to bolster the economy and could spend twice that if needed.

We can afford to pay for border security and support immigrant needs, we just choose not to do that. Immigrants are easy political targets for right-wingers worldwide but none so much as here.

I’m all for open borders. They can work and pay into Social Security for my benefit. Immigrants, documented or not, are a net gain for this country. They always have been and always will be. Well, except not a net gain way back when for our indigenous peoples.

---

Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.

Quote
RgrF

Quote
Ted King
Imagine if we had spent a fraction of the several trillion dollars we spent on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars on investments in infrastructure for our neighbors to the South.

We have a military budget that is twice the combined budgets of Russia, China, France, North Korea, South Korea, Great Britain and Australia. We just decided to spend a trillion+ dollars to bolster the economy and could spend twice that if needed.

We can afford to pay for border security and support immigrant needs, we just choose not to do that. Immigrants are easy political targets for right-wingers worldwide but none so much as here.

“Can EU citizens work anywhere in Europe?

As an EU citizen, you have the right to move to any EU country to live, work, study, look for a job or retire. You can stay in another EU country for up to 3 months without registering there but you may need to report your presence. The only requirement is to hold a valid national identity card or passport.”

We could do the same for this hemisphere.

---

Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2021 08:01PM by Speedy.

Quote
Speedy

Quote
RgrF

Quote
Ted King
Imagine if we had spent a fraction of the several trillion dollars we spent on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars on investments in infrastructure for our neighbors to the South.

We have a military budget that is twice the combined budgets of Russia, China, France, North Korea, South Korea, Great Britain and Australia. We just decided to spend a trillion+ dollars to bolster the economy and could spend twice that if needed.

We can afford to pay for border security and support immigrant needs, we just choose not to do that. Immigrants are easy political targets for right-wingers worldwide but none so much as here.

“Can EU citizens work anywhere in Europe?

As an EU citizen, you have the right to move to any EU country to live, work, study, look for a job or retire. You can stay in another EU country for up to 3 months without registering there but you may need to report your presence. The only requirement is to hold a valid national identity card or passport.”

We could do the same for this hemisphere.

Indeed. As noted previously, we have a large need for workers - something like 10 million unfilled jobs currently. And frankly, many of these are entry-level.

Congress treats it as "not invented here" issue. They don't do anything because they don't know what they WANT to do

Quote
testcase
... The "American Dream" is weakened by illegals for all those who "jumped through the hoops" to enter legally. ..

Nah that makes no difference whatsoever. Someone's lied to you, repeatedly. Study up on Ellis Island sometime. We handled that pretty well.

"OK, your name now is ... ______" Done.

Food for thought:

We should be a country of a billion people. Yes, I'm serious.

Quote
deckeda
Congress treats it as "not invented here" issue. They don't do anything because they don't know what they WANT to do

Quote
testcase
... The "American Dream" is weakened by illegals for all those who "jumped through the hoops" to enter legally. ..

Nah that makes no difference whatsoever. Someone's lied to you, repeatedly. Study up on Ellis Island sometime. We handled that pretty well.

"OK, your name now is ... ______" Done.

Our son and daughter-in-law live less than a mile from the southern frontier. She is a green card holder thanks only to her marriage to our son. She has remarked that she doesn’t like undocumented people who cross the border because they should wait their turn, that they have no business staying here without having earned the right. (We have decided it wouldn’t be prudent to ask her exactly what she did to earn the right to a green card.)

Sadly, her viewpoint is shared by the majority of people along the frontier. Early on when TFG and Miller were on the rampage, MSNBC had a reporter in front of the large border patrol office near McAllen, Tex. The in-studio host asked the reporter why there were zero protesters at that office and his reply was along the same lines as my daughter-in-law’s.

(Not relevant, but we don’t like her. Even her mother doesn’t like her (an only child spoiled by her father) all that much and has stated to us in front of her daughter that she does not deserve a nice man like our son. On the other hand, we really like our daughter-in-law’s mother and father!)

---

Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.

Quote
mrbigstuff
We should be a country of a billion people. Yes, I'm serious.

Well, maybe not a billion. Much of Alaska is not all that hospitable. But we could easily double our population although that is unlikely to happen anytime soon.

---

Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.

If I were from Haiti, I'd be trying everything I could to make it to the United States. I can't imagine my life as one of them.

Quote
vision63
If I were from Haiti, I'd be trying everything I could to make it to the United States. I can't imagine my life as one of them.

So would I.
The fact that these people have been in South and Central America and are now being taken back to Haiti seems especially cruel.
Again, I don’t know what the answer is, but leaving them under a bridge or taking them back to Haiti both seem like bad choices.

---

Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)

Quote
Speedy

Quote
mrbigstuff
We should be a country of a billion people. Yes, I'm serious.

Well, maybe not a billion. Much of Alaska is not all that hospitable. But we could easily double our population although that is unlikely to happen anytime soon.

I recall Rush Limbaugh (may God have mercy on his soul, or what was left of it) whenever concern over limited environmental resources would come up, would claim that the entire population of the country could live comfortably in single-family homes within the borders of Texas. Ergo, concern over limited resource was unwarranted. Funny he never brought that calculation up when discussing immigration.

As for immigration, not only are they workers and taxpayers, but they are also customers. And isn't consumption the foundation of our economy? Seems any good Conservative should recognize that, but they never do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2021 10:43PM by Acer.

Quote
rgG

Quote
vision63
If I were from Haiti, I'd be trying everything I could to make it to the United States. I can't imagine my life as one of them.

So would I.
The fact that these people have been in South and Central America and are now being taken back to Haiti seems especially cruel.
Again, I don’t know what the answer is, but leaving them under a bridge or taking them back to Haiti both seem like bad choices.

Well. Cruelty is just built in to certain things. I've had to kick people out of my house that deserved to be kicked out. I didn't want to do it. I did everything I could to resettle them. To make the transition from my house to their own situation as smooth as possible. They were just too broken and I didn't have the resources to save them.

One time I co-signed for someone to help them get a new place. They never paid rent and of course the landlord came to me for the money. It went onto my credit. I wasn't mad at them at all, I knew they were broken. I was mad at me for not looking out for me. Thank goodness for the 7 year thing where it drops off. But the landlord sued me for the money and I had to get a lawyer to defeat them.

If they let in all of those Haitians, then thousands more would come. It would never stop. Not just Haitians. So anything that we choose to do is not going to be satisfying. It's going to be terrible.

We need 1. Comprehensive Immigration Reform. 2. A game plan to restore Haiti that actually works. Smart, honest people running their government. Haiti is on the same island as Dominican Republic. If they can make it, so can Haiti.

Right now, Democrats are trying to include reform into the Infrastructure Plan. That's not gonna work. That's just desperation because we're teetering on having power. It's stuff like this that's keeping the infrastructure bill from making it through. We're simply going to have to elect more power. There is no other remedy.

I hope I'm wrong and can be surprised with successes.

Quote
mrbigstuff
We should be a country of a billion people. Yes, I'm serious.

What would that look like? We can't, or won't take care of the ones that are already here. And I don't mean immigrants. We've already got over a half million homeless - and growing daily. Nearly 40 million people live in poverty in the US. Healthcare is an utter disaster. In 50 years the world population will be well over 10 billion.

Hard choices will have to be made long before then. As US citizens we have had the luxury of economic privilege since WWII. It's for another discussion whether or not we earned it or merely got lucky. Maybe both. But it's come at the expense of third world countries, that's beyond dispute. Now all those billions want our lifestyle, too, and who can blame them.

I agree with Emma Lazarus...

I have mixed feelings. While I don't feel we should let people suffer as they do either waiting to get into this country or in the country of their origin, I've also been through this. My wife is an immigrant. We met in college and married. She had a temporary visa when we met and getting married allowed her to stay...at the time...temporarily. That started an over five year ordeal with INS that was nothing short of mind boggling. One of the highlights of the entire process being the fact that with regards to the INS, your fingerprints actually expire. Who knew???

Anyway, we were poor college students. All the money her parents could scrape together went to her tuition. My parents had no money to speak of. So we worked full time and went to school full time and forked over I don't know how many thousands of dollars to the government to further a process that moved at the speed of a tectonic plate. We got up early to travel (in our @#$%& car) to the closest INS office 4 hours away whenever we had to. No excuses. We put up with endless letters from them stating "Thank you for your application, you will receive a response in 350 days". Not even kidding. Most of the interactions with them felt like a mafia shakedown.

But we eventually got her green card. And eventually her citizenship. I know our situation was different. She was not fleeing a country. Although she literally had nothing to go back to. But we sucked it up and made it happen. I don't think everyone should be forced to go through what we did. But I also don't feel like entry into the country shouldn't be handed out like candy at Halloween. The bureaucracy was so bad at the time we did it, I cannot imagine it now.

---

I would like to see us accept every Haitian who wants to live here. They would make our country better. Theirs is an extraordinary case, fleeing one of the world's poorest countries.

We can easily absorb these people, nobody here would even notice.

As the climate crisis worsens there will be millions who have to move. Could include some of us. But many will come jere and we may as well learn to adapt.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2021 07:02AM by Lemon Drop.

No simple or easy answers to this problem, but we need to address it and not just kick the can further down the road like we have been doing for decades.

---

Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)

Quote
Ted King
Imagine if we had spent a fraction of the several trillion dollars we spent on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars on investments in infrastructure for our neighbors to the South.

It would probably be embezzled worse than the bucks in Afganastan. So much graft both places.

We have tens of thousands of homeless in every big metro area. Where are the Haitians, Syrians, Afghanis, and Central Americans going to live?

The environment is having problems with the 7 billion people it has now. If the US had a billion people, that would put the total population over 20 billion. Yes, we theoretically have the technology to feed that many but I can only imagine dystopian cities with families living in stacks of 100 sqft cubes slowly crumbling into the raising oceans.

---

In tha 360. MRF User Map

Fun fact: World population growth rate is currently (1%) half of what it was at its peak in the late 1960s (2%).

Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
We have tens of thousands of homeless in every big metro area. Where are the Haitians, Syrians, Afghanis, and Central Americans going to live?

The environment is having problems with the 7 billion people it has now. If the US had a billion people, that would put the total population over 20 billion. Yes, we theoretically have the technology to feed that many but I can only imagine dystopian cities with families living in stacks of 100 sqft cubes slowly crumbling into the raising oceans.

Refugees can be settled in smaller towns where the cost of living is lower, or in cities with available resources. We have been doing this well for a long time.

This is not the homeless population of places like Seattle and LA, those are our home born folks who get priced out of housing and/ or have untreated mental health and substance abuse problems. Different problem.

I have no idea what our future polulation might be, but right now we need and can accommodate many more immigrants that we are currently accepting.

Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
We have tens of thousands of homeless in every big metro area. Where are the Haitians, Syrians, Afghanis, and Central Americans going to live?

The environment is having problems with the 7 billion people it has now. If the US had a billion people, that would put the total population over 20 billion. Yes, we theoretically have the technology to feed that many but I can only imagine dystopian cities with families living in stacks of 100 sqft cubes slowly crumbling into the raising oceans.

Park them anywhere until the POLICY is shored up. We can mitigate squalor and enviro issues better than Haiti or wherever, and besides, if they are here, they aren't there. It's not like the global population "increases."

Quote
Speedy
But we could easily double our population although that is unlikely to happen anytime soon.

"Easily"??



We could not "easily double":
- Our housing
- Our electrical grid
- Our fresh water supply
- Our food supply and distribution
- Our school systems
- Our healthcare systems
- Our civic support systems:
-- fire and police departments
-- sewage systems
-- recycling and solid wastes systems
-- public transit
-- street and highway maintenance
...and hundreds and hundreds of other needs!

The "inconvenient truth" is that resources are NOT infinite.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2021 11:30AM by DeusxMac.

Here's an interview with Matt Yglesias about his 2020 book, One Billion Americans.

[www.vox.com]

Quote
Lemon Drop
Here's an interview with Matt Yglesias about his 2020 book, One Billion Americans.

[www.vox.com]

"...Harvard University, where he studied philosophy."

"approached [American politics and public policy issues] from an abstract, philosophical perspective."

"...suggests that a substantial increase to the population of the United States is necessary to perpetuate American hegemony."

NYT "...the premise for vastly increasing the US population is impossible and unjustified."

This is a great thread that represents just SOME of the political challenges when trying to address this issue.

The reality is that we will face this whether we like it or not. My view under such circumstances is to then be pro-active.

I stand by the view that the best way to deal with immigration from our hemisphere is to help Mexico etc develop great economies. That removes the incentive to come here. I am not talking about exporting our car assembly lines across the border. But to help Mexico have its own, thriving economy. To my knowledge, this has not been done. It might be impossible due to corruption, etc.

In the meantime, our children WILL be looking at choices of either preparing the USA for 1 billion people because we embraced the challenge, or having an economy of 400 million that is closer to that of Japan in 20 years. Up to you on which version of America we see in 2040/2050.

Whatever your views, moving us back to 1950 for USA in 2050 is NOT in the cards.

Quote
DeusxMac

Quote
Lemon Drop
Here's an interview with Matt Yglesias about his 2020 book, One Billion Americans.

[www.vox.com]

"...Harvard University, where he studied philosophy."

"approached [American politics and public policy issues] from an abstract, philosophical perspective."

"...suggests that a substantial increase to the population of the United States is necessary to perpetuate American hegemony."

NYT "...the premise for vastly increasing the US population is impossible and unjustified."

Nice editing

"Yglesias himself concedes that the concept is “impossible and absurd.”
[www.nytimes.com]

His point was to argue for some changes to social and economic policy. Interestingly that NY Times review incorrectly says the US birth rate will never drop like Europe's has. Um.

The least we could do when discussing it is recognize legal vs illegal immigration. It seems whenever this topic comes up, half are talking about legal immigration and the other half are talking about illegal immigration.

I've never heard of nor been to any country that did not take secure borders seriously. You have to know who is entering and leaving your country.

To say there is no problem is ridiculous. Only the privileged could think that. The source of the problem has been that people enjoy the slave labor that is created when people enter the U.S. illegally.

The fact people refuse to admit there is a problem has caused a backlog of issues that has made it overwhelming at this point. Housing really is an issue right now. It's literally crazy, and I believe it all comes down to incredible greed. I'm with rgG though, in that it's not a simple fix, but the idea everything is fine has to go away.

Who exactly said there is no problem?

---

In tha 360. MRF User Map

No one said literally, "There is no problem." But, "We can easily absorb these people, nobody here would even notice." sounds a lot like immigration is not a problem.

"easily double our population". No problem! Easy.

"I’m all for open borders." No problem, let anyone who wants to come, just walk over, or fly over, etc.

I think it's pretty obvious.

I think truly open borders is not possible or a good idea.

You can’t have people coming and going with no rules at all.

The problem we have now is that there are laws on the books but we either can’t, won’t, or choose not to enforce them. We also choose not to update and change them. Congress is mostly to blame for this lack of inaction. Congress is broken. They no longer compromise or consider the greater good it’s all partisan politics, all the time. I think there is more blame for the republicans, but the Democrats are not without fault either. I am sick of it.

I have always thought that making places like Mexico, and other close countries, better places to live, would be a great start to helping control illegal immigration from the south, but there are a lot of obstacles to that. We get into the whole “nation building” debacle, really quickly.

Again, no easy fix, but neither are a lot of things. Who is going to pick up this torch and actually get something done, or will we just wait for the next news cycle? I am betting can kicking wins, again.

---

Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2021 02:02PM by rgG.

Quote
testcase
When an illegal sneaks in, they are committing a FELONY. The "American Dream" is weakened by illegals for all those who "jumped through the hoops" to enter legally.

Actually it is a misdemeanor, not a felony, the first time someone enters without documents giving them permission.

Quote
rgG
I think truly open borders is not possible or a good idea.

You can’t have people coming and going with no rules at all.

The problem we have now is that there are laws on the books but we either can’t, won’t, or choose not to enforce them. We also choose not to update and change them. Congress is mostly to blame for this lack of inaction. Congress is broken. They no longer compromise or consider the greater good it’s all partisan politics, all the time. I think there is more blame for the republicans, but the Democrats are not without fault either. I am sick of it.

I have always thought that making places like Mexico, and other close countries, better places to live, would be a great start to helping control illegal immigration from the south, but there are a lot of obstacles to that. We get into the whole “nation building” debacle, really quickly.

Again, no easy fix, but neither are a lot of things. Who is going to pick up this torch and actually get something done, or will we just wait for the next news cycle? I am betting can kicking wins, again.

Americans aren't crazy about initiatives that elevate poor countries. They feel it's at the expense of American jobs. But then they complain that the undocumented undermining our jobs. Clinton got savaged about NAFTA and Trump ended it. How dare Mexicans have factories to work at. TPP was blasted out of the box right away. It didn't stop China and the other countries from doing it anyway. China is roping in counties around the globe to do their bidding.

Congress isn't broken. The people that elect them are. We're selfish, pure and righteous.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2021 02:53PM by vision63.

In the 1980s, GOP Golden Age, the US was resettling around 150k to 200k people every year.

In 2019 we accepted 30k under a hateful racist regime.

Refugees need safety, education, jobs and community. They cannot return safely to their home country. We used to lead the world in generosity and welcoming spirit.

Then we got greedy and mean.

These people make our country richer, stronger, smarter and frankly a lot more interesting.

Let's welcome the stranger again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2021 04:12PM by Lemon Drop.

Quote
Filliam H. Muffman

Literally about 20 miles from here in TJ.

So we can also compare that picture: Here to there… the "other side" isn't all like those shanties, but there are some pretty desperate places as the photojournalist captured. And they're all just "over the borderline".

Of course, there aren't just one but TWO walls between here and there, so there's that. Ugh.

Like Bazookaman I married an immigrant and went through the naturalization process. Like him both my wife and I have mixed feelings in regards to this. She is also from Honduras, a country that supplies many of the refugees that are crossing our borders illegally.

She came from a family that was as poor as many of those crowding under the bridge in Texas. So with that in mind, I think we are allowed our opinion.

We feel bad for those trying to get here but there is a legal process that needs to be followed. Is the process fair? hardly but it is up to us to correct that not for them to ignore it.

It may not be popular to say, but the vast majority of the individual in the caravans coming here are those that want an easy road. They see the US as the land of proverbial milk & honey. Many are individuals who didn't want to put forth effort in the country they came from, will they do so here?

Is this me seeing things from this side of the border? No, this is the opinion of those who have chosen to stay in their home country and work to improve it.

Yes, this is a generalization but when talking about the numbers involved then generalizations are usually more truthful than cherry-picking an individual tale.

If we are to let them all in, then there needs to be a system in place to put them to work. If they want to stay, then they must contribute to society. Opening our borders without restrictions is not going to work.

As for the haitians that are this week's hot story, these are not people who came directly from Haiti. They came from other Latin American countries, places where most had been for some time, working and living in conditions far better than their brethren in Haiti.

I know what I have said will not be popular with many of you, but it is what life has taught my wife and I.

---

“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias

Quote
Filliam H. Muffman

What did that area look like a year before the Amazon building; 10 years before, 20 year before, 50 years before?

Quote
DeusxMac

Quote
Filliam H. Muffman

What did that area look like a year before the Amazon building; 10 years before, 20 year before, 50 years before?

Most of TJ looks better than that. One of my favorite places to enjoy.

Quote
DeusxMac

Quote
Speedy
But we could easily double our population although that is unlikely to happen anytime soon.

"Easily"??



We could not "easily double":
- Our housing
- Our electrical grid
- Our fresh water supply
- Our food supply and distribution
- Our school systems
- Our healthcare systems
- Our civic support systems:
-- fire and police departments
-- sewage systems
-- recycling and solid wastes systems
-- public transit
-- street and highway maintenance
...and hundreds and hundreds of other needs!

The "inconvenient truth" is that resources are NOT infinite.

China did it. Look where China was before Deng Xiaoping became supreme leader a little over 40 years ago. I think we can handle everything you list as well as the Chinese did, even with the GQP standing firmly in the way.

---

Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.

Like Bazookaman and Ombligo I married an immigrant and went through the naturalization process. Simple, quick and easy. Required a physical, documents and an interview that included me. The INS determined we were legit. This was in 1982 before Raygun did his thing. Citizenship took more effort in 2002 but she wanted to vote against Bush the Bumbler so she plowed on through the requirements.

---

Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2021 09:27PM by Speedy.

Y'all be pondering.