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Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: October 12, 2021 09:35PM
... she was just on GMA3, doing an interview about the upcoming special "Impeachment: An American Crime Story" on FX.

[www.goodmorningamerica.com]

I just have to say, the woman is gorgeous. She's 48 (!) ... she does NOT look 48 to me. She speaks very well on all these subjects and is quite articulate, not to mention extremely courageous and brave, to have come back in the way that she has after all these years.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: RgrF
Date: October 12, 2021 09:39PM
She's had 25 years of seasoning in public glare to get where she is today. She didn't come out of the box that way.
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: Speedy
Date: October 12, 2021 10:11PM
True, nice looking at 48.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: Rolando
Date: October 12, 2021 10:33PM
Hawking her new book movie. Probably needs a cash infusion.

In 10 years she'll be hawking another one.



San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2021 11:22PM by Rolando.
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: $tevie
Date: October 12, 2021 10:48PM
I saw her speak at the University of MD Baltimore City. I've also seen her Ted Talk and read her Vanity Fair article from 2014. She's articulate and intelligent and cares about people besides only herself. She's also been very mature in how she discusses her relationship with Bill Clinton, a courtesy that has never been extended to her by the media or the public.



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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: $tevie
Date: October 12, 2021 10:52PM
Quote
Rolando
Hawking her new book. Probably needs a cash infusion.

In 10 years she'll be hawking another one.
She's never written a book.



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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: vision63
Date: October 12, 2021 11:15PM
She carries herself well to me.
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: RgrF
Date: October 12, 2021 11:16PM
Not a lot of public figures deserve any degree of consideration, she does.
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: Rolando
Date: October 12, 2021 11:23PM
Hawking her new book movie. Probably needs a cash infusion.

In 10 years she'll be hawking another one.

Thanks for the correction $tevie!
Quote
$tevie
She's never written a book.



San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: October 13, 2021 08:19AM
I don't have a problem with her hawking any new movie (or book, if she decides to write one) ... we've all seen people doing the same, with far less under their belt to claim to be knowledgeable or able to speak about. And it's understandable that she needs the cash, considering that-- as she mentioned in the interview-- she couldn't get a job... the problem being that there isn't anyone who hasn't heard her name and associate it with the scandal, or the butt of a bad joke, or both. I can't imagine what it must be like to be her.

And yeah, I realize she didn't come out of the box that way ... hard to believe she was only 22 when this all happened, and yeah, the courtesy wasn't extended to her at that age-- as she said, she was "fresh meat"-- I was shocked when she put it that way, but it's true.

Highly admirable that she's been able to take something terrible from her past and turn it around to try to make something positive come from it... a very attractive quality, independent of her physical appearance.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: Ammo
Date: October 13, 2021 11:15AM
Talk about a power imbalance: a 22 year old and the President of the United States! IMO, Clinton has always deserved 110% of the blame for their affair.



Where is there dignity unless there is also honesty? - Cicero

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about. —Wendy Mass
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: mattkime
Date: October 13, 2021 01:23PM
I have a hard time figuring out how you could cast any blame on Monica now or then unless you're stuck in the 1990s defending Bill Clinton.



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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: vision63
Date: October 13, 2021 01:30PM
Quote
mattkime
I have a hard time figuring out how you could cast any blame on Monica now or then unless you're stuck in the 1990s defending Bill Clinton.

I follow her and I admire her, but you just don't like Bill Clinton. Stop infantilizing her.
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: October 13, 2021 02:12PM
.....what was she wearing.....????



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: mattkime
Date: October 13, 2021 02:34PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
mattkime
I have a hard time figuring out how you could cast any blame on Monica now or then unless you're stuck in the 1990s defending Bill Clinton.

I follow her and I admire her, but you just don't like Bill Clinton. Stop infantilizing her.

huh?



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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: RgrF
Date: October 13, 2021 02:43PM
Quote
mattkime
Quote
vision63
Quote
mattkime
I have a hard time figuring out how you could cast any blame on Monica now or then unless you're stuck in the 1990s defending Bill Clinton.

I follow her and I admire her, but you just don't like Bill Clinton. Stop infantilizing her.

huh?

Just a minor mixup, Russ probably thought he was talking to me. big grin smiley
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: vision63
Date: October 13, 2021 04:32PM
Quote
RgrF
Quote
mattkime
Quote
vision63
Quote
mattkime
I have a hard time figuring out how you could cast any blame on Monica now or then unless you're stuck in the 1990s defending Bill Clinton.

I follow her and I admire her, but you just don't like Bill Clinton. Stop infantilizing her.

huh?

Just a minor mixup, Russ probably thought he was talking to me. big grin smiley

You wouldn't say that though. Everybody was adults that knew exactly what they were doing initially.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2021 04:33PM by vision63.
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: Racer X
Date: October 13, 2021 07:12PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
RgrF
Quote
mattkime
Quote
vision63
Quote
mattkime
I have a hard time figuring out how you could cast any blame on Monica now or then unless you're stuck in the 1990s defending Bill Clinton.

I follow her and I admire her, but you just don't like Bill Clinton. Stop infantilizing her.

huh?

Just a minor mixup, Russ probably thought he was talking to me. big grin smiley

You wouldn't say that though. Everybody was adults that knew exactly what they were doing initially.

Yes, but the human frontal cortex isn't done fully forming until about 25. Risk and reasoning aren't at the same level as they would be at say 30, or even 27, just 5 years older. That's the whole reason colleges and universities have rules about students and faculty having relations. The power dynamic, lust and trust overcome common sense and concern over a negative outcome.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: October 13, 2021 07:18PM
Enabling

“Codependency is a type of dysfunctional helping relationship where one person supports or enables another person's… immaturity, irresponsibility…, in order to satisfy the codependent's own emotional needs.”

“Refusing to confront or protect oneself when exposed to physical, emotional or verbal assault.”
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: vision63
Date: October 13, 2021 07:20PM
Quote
Racer X
Quote
vision63
Quote
RgrF
Quote
mattkime
Quote
vision63
Quote
mattkime
I have a hard time figuring out how you could cast any blame on Monica now or then unless you're stuck in the 1990s defending Bill Clinton.

I follow her and I admire her, but you just don't like Bill Clinton. Stop infantilizing her.

huh?

Just a minor mixup, Russ probably thought he was talking to me. big grin smiley

You wouldn't say that though. Everybody was adults that knew exactly what they were doing initially.

Yes, but the human frontal cortex isn't done fully forming until about 25. Risk and reasoning aren't at the same level as they would be at say 30, or even 27, just 5 years older. That's the whole reason colleges and universities have rules about students and faculty having relations. The power dynamic, lust and trust overcome common sense and concern over a negative outcome.

Really Racer? That's how far you got to go, to turn her into Miss Polly Purebread. When I was 18 I was grown. Paying bills, working jobs and going to college. When I was 22, I was working at Security Pacific Bank having gone through their management training program and became an Operations Supervisor. Was my brain not formed enough to accomplish that? You know how many women I slept with by that time? Plenty.

By the time my mother was 21, she had birthed all three of her kids, moved across the country and made a new life for herself, dragging a deadbeat husband with her.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2021 07:21PM by vision63.
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: Racer X
Date: October 13, 2021 08:30PM
My partner has a Masters in Education, with an emphasis in childhood development. I can assure you that the frontal lobe is not fully developed until 25. Slight variations, of course.

[www.neuroskills.com]

"The frontal lobes are considered our emotional control center and home to our personality. ... The frontal lobes are involved in motor function, problem solving, spontaneity, memory, language, initiation, judgement, impulse control, and social and sexual behavior"

Nothing about this says you can't have sex before 25, or have children. Or have a good start in a successful career. BUT, until you hit 25 or so you aren't at your optimal, maximum mental and social capacity.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2021 08:31PM by Racer X.
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: October 13, 2021 08:41PM
She openly admits that she made truly terrible choices and mistakes; I don't blame her for that, I don't know too many 22 year-olds who have particularly great judgment. And as pointed out, there was a massive power imbalance there.

Yes, it takes two to tango, and they were both adults and she was responsible for everything that happened, but... her mistakes were amplified by a culture that wanted to pin whatever they possibly could on Clinton, and a machine designed to do whatever it took to do so, including the sacrificial massacre of a "fresh meat" 22 year-old lamb as a side-consequence of getting Clinton. (Think also of what might have happened, had Linda Tripp not been in the picture.)

Edit: Racer is entirely correct about brain development and the relationship to judgement skills.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2021 08:52PM by PeterB.
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: vision63
Date: October 13, 2021 09:38PM
Quote
PeterB
She openly admits that she made truly terrible choices and mistakes; I don't blame her for that, I don't know too many 22 year-olds who have particularly great judgment. And as pointed out, there was a massive power imbalance there.

Yes, it takes two to tango, and they were both adults and she was responsible for everything that happened, but... her mistakes were amplified by a culture that wanted to pin whatever they possibly could on Clinton, and a machine designed to do whatever it took to do so, including the sacrificial massacre of a "fresh meat" 22 year-old lamb as a side-consequence of getting Clinton. (Think also of what might have happened, had Linda Tripp not been in the picture.)

Edit: Racer is entirely correct about brain development and the relationship to judgement skills.

He's right about everything but that's not my point. If she shot Bill, would we be pulling out how undeveloped her frontal cortex was? Do we do it for anybody else? No we do not. The "Victims" were Hillary and their daughter. Monica was a victim beyond the sex by those bad characters. That's something that's just unfortunate. Play with fire you get burned.
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: Rolando
Date: October 13, 2021 10:14PM
Quote
vision63
I follow her and I admire her, but you just don't like Bill Clinton. Stop infantilizing her.

Nobody infantilizes 20 year old women like 40 year old women! Often its the same person!



San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: jdc
Date: October 13, 2021 11:13PM
She also did a pretty good interview with John Oliver, a year or so ago-- on his segment about net bullying, which was also good, worth a watch. fwiw, the special started several weeks ago.

Agreed that she carries herself very well, I have always found her easy to look at.

And you can cite whatever study or whatnot about -- but inho Clinton was a predator. PB is correct, the balance of blame was *all* on her, when it shouldn't have been. She could have been starry eyed and had a crush, or infatuation with Clinton, lots of women did (and do with other famous/celebs, etc). She could have even shown up at his house dressed in her birthday suit.

If that happened to any of the men here, what would you do? run with it? I think not.

As a married man, in a huge public spotlight all he had to do was think with his big head not his little one and none of this would have existed.

She has made some great statements about the whole thing, including taking responsibility for her part. Something BC cant.

And she doesn't need the money.





Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: Racer X
Date: October 13, 2021 11:46PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
PeterB
She openly admits that she made truly terrible choices and mistakes; I don't blame her for that, I don't know too many 22 year-olds who have particularly great judgment. And as pointed out, there was a massive power imbalance there.

Yes, it takes two to tango, and they were both adults and she was responsible for everything that happened, but... her mistakes were amplified by a culture that wanted to pin whatever they possibly could on Clinton, and a machine designed to do whatever it took to do so, including the sacrificial massacre of a "fresh meat" 22 year-old lamb as a side-consequence of getting Clinton. (Think also of what might have happened, had Linda Tripp not been in the picture.)



Edit: Racer is entirely correct about brain development and the relationship to judgement skills.

He's right about everything but that's not my point. If she shot Bill, would we be pulling out how undeveloped her frontal cortex was? Do we do it for anybody else? No we do not. The "Victims" were Hillary and their daughter. Monica was a victim beyond the sex by those bad characters. That's something that's just unfortunate. Play with fire you get burned.

That's why sentencing for a 12 yo is different than a 32 yo. When you hit 18, it is assumed you can understand why killing someone isn't OK. But understanding subtlties and shades of grey comes with age and your brain finishing cooking.

I'm not defending her, just explaining context and how it could happen to many in those circumstances.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: RgrF
Date: October 14, 2021 02:00AM
Quote
jdc
As a married man, in a huge public spotlight all he had to do was think with his big head not his little one and none of this would have existed.

Nor would we have had a President George W. Bush - how drastically would our history and world relationships have changed from where they are today?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2021 02:06AM by RgrF.
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: jdc
Date: October 14, 2021 04:41AM
Quote
RgrF
Quote
jdc
As a married man, in a huge public spotlight all he had to do was think with his big head not his little one and none of this would have existed.

Nor would we have had a President George W. Bush - how drastically would our history and world relationships have changed from where they are today?

Perhaps. Dont think BCs missteps caused Gore to lose?





Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: October 14, 2021 09:03AM
Quote
vision63
If she shot Bill, would we be pulling out how undeveloped her frontal cortex was?

She probably would have risen in the ranks of the GQP and been Trump's Secretary of State.
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: vision63
Date: October 14, 2021 12:16PM
Quote
RgrF
Quote
jdc
As a married man, in a huge public spotlight all he had to do was think with his big head not his little one and none of this would have existed.

Nor would we have had a President George W. Bush - how drastically would our history and world relationships have changed from where they are today?

That's a big stretch. Like we don't know what really happened in 2000.
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: vision63
Date: October 14, 2021 12:26PM
Quote
jdc
Quote
RgrF
Quote
jdc
As a married man, in a huge public spotlight all he had to do was think with his big head not his little one and none of this would have existed.

Nor would we have had a President George W. Bush - how drastically would our history and world relationships have changed from where they are today?

Perhaps. Dont think BCs missteps caused Gore to lose?

Hell no. Gore, who I admire in general, idiotically chose to distance himself from Bill. Bill was desperate to help him but Gore strategized that allowing him to be a part of his campaign would damage it.

Let's remember, Bill Clinton left office with a 65% approval rating. His presidency was considered a rousing success because the economy was super-heated. He inherited an economy that was in a shambles, a recession, and generated the greatest economic expansion in world history. He not only eliminated the deficit (remember the debt clocks and all that bs?) he created a surplus. He created millions and millions of jobs and was well liked upon leaving office.

Gore was a part of all that success. He chose to not tout any of it. We certainly remember Florida. Hopefully we remember Ralph Nader and how many people that hated Bush chose to vote for him instead.

In retrospect, had he embraced Bill Clinton, he would have been president. His National Campaign Director was Donna Brazile. The same woman that lied about Hillary Clinton and claimed she rigged the primaries in 2016. She ended up walking that back.

I can go on, but there it is.
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: vision63
Date: October 14, 2021 12:27PM
Quote
Racer X
Quote
vision63
Quote
PeterB
She openly admits that she made truly terrible choices and mistakes; I don't blame her for that, I don't know too many 22 year-olds who have particularly great judgment. And as pointed out, there was a massive power imbalance there.

Yes, it takes two to tango, and they were both adults and she was responsible for everything that happened, but... her mistakes were amplified by a culture that wanted to pin whatever they possibly could on Clinton, and a machine designed to do whatever it took to do so, including the sacrificial massacre of a "fresh meat" 22 year-old lamb as a side-consequence of getting Clinton. (Think also of what might have happened, had Linda Tripp not been in the picture.)



Edit: Racer is entirely correct about brain development and the relationship to judgement skills.

He's right about everything but that's not my point. If she shot Bill, would we be pulling out how undeveloped her frontal cortex was? Do we do it for anybody else? No we do not. The "Victims" were Hillary and their daughter. Monica was a victim beyond the sex by those bad characters. That's something that's just unfortunate. Play with fire you get burned.

That's why sentencing for a 12 yo is different than a 32 yo. When you hit 18, it is assumed you can understand why killing someone isn't OK. But understanding subtlties and shades of grey comes with age and your brain finishing cooking.

I'm not defending her, just explaining context and how it could happen to many in those circumstances.

I don't dispute that. I just don't think it's relevant in this case.
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: Speedy
Date: October 14, 2021 04:00PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
jdc
Quote
RgrF
Quote
jdc
As a married man, in a huge public spotlight all he had to do was think with his big head not his little one and none of this would have existed.

Nor would we have had a President George W. Bush - how drastically would our history and world relationships have changed from where they are today?

Perhaps. Dont think BCs missteps caused Gore to lose?

Hell no. Gore, who I admire in general, idiotically chose to distance himself from Bill. Bill was desperate to help him but Gore strategized that allowing him to be a part of his campaign would damage it.

Let's remember, Bill Clinton left office with a 65% approval rating. His presidency was considered a rousing success because the economy was super-heated. He inherited an economy that was in a shambles, a recession, and generated the greatest economic expansion in world history. He not only eliminated the deficit (remember the debt clocks and all that bs?) he created a surplus. He created millions and millions of jobs and was well liked upon leaving office.

Gore was a part of all that success. He chose to not tout any of it. We certainly remember Florida. Hopefully we remember Ralph Nader and how many people that hated Bush chose to vote for him instead.

In retrospect, had he embraced Bill Clinton, he would have been president. His National Campaign Director was Donna Brazile. The same woman that lied about Hillary Clinton and claimed she rigged the primaries in 2016. She ended up walking that back.

I can go on, but there it is.

Nope, Pres. Clinton would have been a liability had he campaigned for VP Gore. It’s all about turnout and too many people were turned off by Clinton. If only he had kept his pants zipped the country, and probably the world, would be a better place today.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: October 14, 2021 04:51PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
PeterB
She openly admits that she made truly terrible choices and mistakes; I don't blame her for that, I don't know too many 22 year-olds who have particularly great judgment. And as pointed out, there was a massive power imbalance there.

Yes, it takes two to tango, and they were both adults and she was responsible for everything that happened, but... her mistakes were amplified by a culture that wanted to pin whatever they possibly could on Clinton, and a machine designed to do whatever it took to do so, including the sacrificial massacre of a "fresh meat" 22 year-old lamb as a side-consequence of getting Clinton. (Think also of what might have happened, had Linda Tripp not been in the picture.)

Edit: Racer is entirely correct about brain development and the relationship to judgement skills.

He's right about everything but that's not my point. If she shot Bill, would we be pulling out how undeveloped her frontal cortex was? Do we do it for anybody else? No we do not. The "Victims" were Hillary and their daughter. Monica was a victim beyond the sex by those bad characters. That's something that's just unfortunate. Play with fire you get burned.

Not even directly comparable. There's a huge difference between having an affair and shooting someone. In actual fact, she committed no crime. It's debatable whether Clinton committed any crime (assuming adultery is not really criminal; and lying under oath, but about something you shouldn't be getting asked in the first place, is debatable).




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: vision63
Date: October 14, 2021 05:00PM
Quote
Speedy
Quote
vision63
Quote
jdc
Quote
RgrF
Quote
jdc
As a married man, in a huge public spotlight all he had to do was think with his big head not his little one and none of this would have existed.

Nor would we have had a President George W. Bush - how drastically would our history and world relationships have changed from where they are today?

Perhaps. Dont think BCs missteps caused Gore to lose?

Hell no. Gore, who I admire in general, idiotically chose to distance himself from Bill. Bill was desperate to help him but Gore strategized that allowing him to be a part of his campaign would damage it.

Let's remember, Bill Clinton left office with a 65% approval rating. His presidency was considered a rousing success because the economy was super-heated. He inherited an economy that was in a shambles, a recession, and generated the greatest economic expansion in world history. He not only eliminated the deficit (remember the debt clocks and all that bs?) he created a surplus. He created millions and millions of jobs and was well liked upon leaving office.

Gore was a part of all that success. He chose to not tout any of it. We certainly remember Florida. Hopefully we remember Ralph Nader and how many people that hated Bush chose to vote for him instead.

In retrospect, had he embraced Bill Clinton, he would have been president. His National Campaign Director was Donna Brazile. The same woman that lied about Hillary Clinton and claimed she rigged the primaries in 2016. She ended up walking that back.

I can go on, but there it is.

Nope, Pres. Clinton would have been a liability had he campaigned for VP Gore. It’s all about turnout and too many people were turned off by Clinton. If only he had kept his pants zipped the country, and probably the world, would be a better place today.

Gore lost. He lost. How can Clinton be so popular and be a liability at the same time? There was a polls to prove his popularity. There were none showing he'd be a liability.
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: vision63
Date: October 14, 2021 05:04PM
Quote
PeterB
Quote
vision63
Quote
PeterB
She openly admits that she made truly terrible choices and mistakes; I don't blame her for that, I don't know too many 22 year-olds who have particularly great judgment. And as pointed out, there was a massive power imbalance there.

Yes, it takes two to tango, and they were both adults and she was responsible for everything that happened, but... her mistakes were amplified by a culture that wanted to pin whatever they possibly could on Clinton, and a machine designed to do whatever it took to do so, including the sacrificial massacre of a "fresh meat" 22 year-old lamb as a side-consequence of getting Clinton. (Think also of what might have happened, had Linda Tripp not been in the picture.)

Edit: Racer is entirely correct about brain development and the relationship to judgement skills.

He's right about everything but that's not my point. If she shot Bill, would we be pulling out how undeveloped her frontal cortex was? Do we do it for anybody else? No we do not. The "Victims" were Hillary and their daughter. Monica was a victim beyond the sex by those bad characters. That's something that's just unfortunate. Play with fire you get burned.

Not even directly comparable. There's a huge difference between having an affair and shooting someone. In actual fact, she committed no crime. It's debatable whether Clinton committed any crime (assuming adultery is not really criminal; and lying under oath, but about something you shouldn't be getting asked in the first place, is debatable).

Regardless, this is something that is irrelevant. A complete non issue. You can't remove her from her role in this by making silly excuses for her.

Debate this based on what actually happened and who was involved.
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: October 14, 2021 05:20PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
PeterB
Quote
vision63
Quote
PeterB
She openly admits that she made truly terrible choices and mistakes; I don't blame her for that, I don't know too many 22 year-olds who have particularly great judgment. And as pointed out, there was a massive power imbalance there.

Yes, it takes two to tango, and they were both adults and she was responsible for everything that happened, but... her mistakes were amplified by a culture that wanted to pin whatever they possibly could on Clinton, and a machine designed to do whatever it took to do so, including the sacrificial massacre of a "fresh meat" 22 year-old lamb as a side-consequence of getting Clinton. (Think also of what might have happened, had Linda Tripp not been in the picture.)

Edit: Racer is entirely correct about brain development and the relationship to judgement skills.

He's right about everything but that's not my point. If she shot Bill, would we be pulling out how undeveloped her frontal cortex was? Do we do it for anybody else? No we do not. The "Victims" were Hillary and their daughter. Monica was a victim beyond the sex by those bad characters. That's something that's just unfortunate. Play with fire you get burned.

Not even directly comparable. There's a huge difference between having an affair and shooting someone. In actual fact, she committed no crime. It's debatable whether Clinton committed any crime (assuming adultery is not really criminal; and lying under oath, but about something you shouldn't be getting asked in the first place, is debatable).

Regardless, this is something that is irrelevant. A complete non issue. You can't remove her from her role in this by making silly excuses for her.

Debate this based on what actually happened and who was involved.

huh smiley

What actually happened: a 22 year old intern "fell in love" and had an affair/sexual interactions with the POTUS, who was married and over twice her age at the time. She made the additional mistake of trusting and confiding in someone who was perfectly OK with using and contributing the confidences to the political machine which was ready and waiting to pounce and try to take down the POTUS. The rest is history.

She is certainly not innocent in this, but in the bigger picture and compared to the other players in the story, her contribution was not major; she was the necessary animal sacrifice the GOP needed to accomplish their goal of trying to oust Clinton. The only reason the whole thing would even be news was because it was the POTUS: had it been someone else, Joe Schmoe off the street, it would have been bad behavior and maybe led to a divorce, and that would have been the end of it... and it's not as if Presidents of both parties haven't had affairs. And lastly, comparing what she did to someone shooting the POTUS is truly a straw man.




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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: vision63
Date: October 14, 2021 05:48PM
Quote
PeterB
Quote
vision63
Quote
PeterB
Quote
vision63
Quote
PeterB
She openly admits that she made truly terrible choices and mistakes; I don't blame her for that, I don't know too many 22 year-olds who have particularly great judgment. And as pointed out, there was a massive power imbalance there.

Yes, it takes two to tango, and they were both adults and she was responsible for everything that happened, but... her mistakes were amplified by a culture that wanted to pin whatever they possibly could on Clinton, and a machine designed to do whatever it took to do so, including the sacrificial massacre of a "fresh meat" 22 year-old lamb as a side-consequence of getting Clinton. (Think also of what might have happened, had Linda Tripp not been in the picture.)

Edit: Racer is entirely correct about brain development and the relationship to judgement skills.

He's right about everything but that's not my point. If she shot Bill, would we be pulling out how undeveloped her frontal cortex was? Do we do it for anybody else? No we do not. The "Victims" were Hillary and their daughter. Monica was a victim beyond the sex by those bad characters. That's something that's just unfortunate. Play with fire you get burned.

Not even directly comparable. There's a huge difference between having an affair and shooting someone. In actual fact, she committed no crime. It's debatable whether Clinton committed any crime (assuming adultery is not really criminal; and lying under oath, but about something you shouldn't be getting asked in the first place, is debatable).

Regardless, this is something that is irrelevant. A complete non issue. You can't remove her from her role in this by making silly excuses for her.

Debate this based on what actually happened and who was involved.

huh smiley

What actually happened: a 22 year old intern "fell in love" and had an affair/sexual interactions with the POTUS, who was married and over twice her age at the time. She made the additional mistake of trusting and confiding in someone who was perfectly OK with using and contributing the confidences to the political machine which was ready and waiting to pounce and try to take down the POTUS. The rest is history.

She is certainly not innocent in this, but in the bigger picture and compared to the other players in the story, her contribution was not major; she was the necessary animal sacrifice the GOP needed to accomplish their goal of trying to oust Clinton. The only reason the whole thing would even be news was because it was the POTUS: had it been someone else, Joe Schmoe off the street, it would have been bad behavior and maybe led to a divorce, and that would have been the end of it... and it's not as if Presidents of both parties haven't had affairs. And lastly, comparing what she did to someone shooting the POTUS is truly a straw man.

Mentioning shooting him was just as unimportant as mentioning the brain thing. That was the point of it.

The "bigger picture" was that they failed to get rid of him. he was still able to deliver major accomplishments during his terms.

Republicans "got" their revenge weaponizing his attempt at national healthcare to flip the House. The most important spike in the ground that completed the ideological shift in American politics.
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: October 14, 2021 07:31PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
PeterB
Quote
vision63
Quote
PeterB
Quote
vision63
Quote
PeterB
She openly admits that she made truly terrible choices and mistakes; I don't blame her for that, I don't know too many 22 year-olds who have particularly great judgment. And as pointed out, there was a massive power imbalance there.

Yes, it takes two to tango, and they were both adults and she was responsible for everything that happened, but... her mistakes were amplified by a culture that wanted to pin whatever they possibly could on Clinton, and a machine designed to do whatever it took to do so, including the sacrificial massacre of a "fresh meat" 22 year-old lamb as a side-consequence of getting Clinton. (Think also of what might have happened, had Linda Tripp not been in the picture.)

Edit: Racer is entirely correct about brain development and the relationship to judgement skills.

He's right about everything but that's not my point. If she shot Bill, would we be pulling out how undeveloped her frontal cortex was? Do we do it for anybody else? No we do not. The "Victims" were Hillary and their daughter. Monica was a victim beyond the sex by those bad characters. That's something that's just unfortunate. Play with fire you get burned.

Not even directly comparable. There's a huge difference between having an affair and shooting someone. In actual fact, she committed no crime. It's debatable whether Clinton committed any crime (assuming adultery is not really criminal; and lying under oath, but about something you shouldn't be getting asked in the first place, is debatable).

Regardless, this is something that is irrelevant. A complete non issue. You can't remove her from her role in this by making silly excuses for her.

Debate this based on what actually happened and who was involved.

huh smiley

What actually happened: a 22 year old intern "fell in love" and had an affair/sexual interactions with the POTUS, who was married and over twice her age at the time. She made the additional mistake of trusting and confiding in someone who was perfectly OK with using and contributing the confidences to the political machine which was ready and waiting to pounce and try to take down the POTUS. The rest is history.

She is certainly not innocent in this, but in the bigger picture and compared to the other players in the story, her contribution was not major; she was the necessary animal sacrifice the GOP needed to accomplish their goal of trying to oust Clinton. The only reason the whole thing would even be news was because it was the POTUS: had it been someone else, Joe Schmoe off the street, it would have been bad behavior and maybe led to a divorce, and that would have been the end of it... and it's not as if Presidents of both parties haven't had affairs. And lastly, comparing what she did to someone shooting the POTUS is truly a straw man.

Mentioning shooting him was just as unimportant as mentioning the brain thing. That was the point of it.

The "bigger picture" was that they failed to get rid of him. he was still able to deliver major accomplishments during his terms.

Republicans "got" their revenge weaponizing his attempt at national healthcare to flip the House. The most important spike in the ground that completed the ideological shift in American politics.

Again, I don't think the brain thing and mentioning shooting him are at all equivalent. The brain thing is to explain that the average 22 year old doesn't have the judgment-making capability of someone older. This goes toward explaining why a 22 year old intern might believe (somehow) that it's OK to date a married older man (who happens to be the POTUS!), that he might be willing to leave his wife for you, and that it would somehow all stay secret. Of course, none of that explains Clinton's behavior, which was (at best) the behavior of a major doofus.

Yes, they did fail to get rid of him, but I disagree about it not having an effect on his accomplishments and ability to get things done during his time in office. His second term was largely preoccupied with the scandal and not his domestic or foreign agenda.

As for the Republicans getting their revenge, I don't think that was the major thing. They got the WH back by virtue of Gore not wanting to associate himself with Clinton (which most here agree was a major mistake, but was slightly understandable at the time).




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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: Racer X
Date: October 14, 2021 07:44PM
Quote
PeterB
Quote
vision63
Quote
PeterB
She openly admits that she made truly terrible choices and mistakes; I don't blame her for that, I don't know too many 22 year-olds who have particularly great judgment. And as pointed out, there was a massive power imbalance there.

Yes, it takes two to tango, and they were both adults and she was responsible for everything that happened, but... her mistakes were amplified by a culture that wanted to pin whatever they possibly could on Clinton, and a machine designed to do whatever it took to do so, including the sacrificial massacre of a "fresh meat" 22 year-old lamb as a side-consequence of getting Clinton. (Think also of what might have happened, had Linda Tripp not been in the picture.)

Edit: Racer is entirely correct about brain development and the relationship to judgement skills.

He's right about everything but that's not my point. If she shot Bill, would we be pulling out how undeveloped her frontal cortex was? Do we do it for anybody else? No we do not. The "Victims" were Hillary and their daughter. Monica was a victim beyond the sex by those bad characters. That's something that's just unfortunate. Play with fire you get burned.

Not even directly comparable. There's a huge difference between having an affair and shooting someone. In actual fact, she committed no crime. It's debatable whether Clinton committed any crime (assuming adultery is not really criminal; and lying under oath, but about something you shouldn't be getting asked in the first place, is debatable).

Consensual sex among adults here in the US isn't against the law, unless perhaps it is sodomy in some jurisdictions. Marriage or registered civil unions have no bearing on the legality. She broke no laws, and BC didn't break any by having sex either.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: $tevie
Date: October 14, 2021 11:32PM
I think it's a bad idea to dismiss a crush/love/romantic inclination with a scientific observation about brain development. I fell in love with my husband when I was 18 and he was 27 -- and I made a damn good choice and we've been together longer than most couples have. This crapola about the cortex is silly. Bill was a hound dog and shouldn't have cheated on his wife, but he did not sexually abuse Monica Lewinsky. Why not take her word for it, she was there and ought to know if she felt he had power over her or not. And she's never said that. And she's a blunt and honest person. PS: my mother's friend shook Clinton's hand once and she said it felt like electricity jolting here when their hands touched, he was just that intense and charismatic. Try ignoring that when you are young and crushing on someone.



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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: Rolando
Date: October 15, 2021 12:03AM
Quote
vision63
Hell no. Gore, who I admire in general, idiotically chose to distance himself from Bill. Bill was desperate to help him but Gore strategized that allowing him to be a part of his campaign would damage it.

Let's remember, Bill Clinton left office with a 65% approval rating. His presidency was considered a rousing success because the economy was super-heated. He inherited an economy that was in a shambles, a recession, and generated the greatest economic expansion in world history. He not only eliminated the deficit (remember the debt clocks and all that bs?) he created a surplus. He created millions and millions of jobs and was well liked upon leaving office.

This!!!

Quote
$tevie
Bill was a hound dog and shouldn't have cheated on his wife, but he did not sexually abuse Monica Lewinsky. Why not take her word for it, she was there and ought to know if she felt he had power over her or not. And she's never said that. And she's a blunt and honest person. PS: my mother's friend shook Clinton's hand once and she said it felt like electricity jolting here when their hands touched, he was just that intense and charismatic. Try ignoring that when you are young and crushing on someone.

And This!



San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: October 15, 2021 10:20AM
Quote
$tevie
I think it's a bad idea to dismiss a crush/love/romantic inclination with a scientific observation about brain development. I fell in love with my husband when I was 18 and he was 27 -- and I made a damn good choice and we've been together longer than most couples have. This crapola about the cortex is silly. Bill was a hound dog and shouldn't have cheated on his wife, but he did not sexually abuse Monica Lewinsky. Why not take her word for it, she was there and ought to know if she felt he had power over her or not. And she's never said that. And she's a blunt and honest person. PS: my mother's friend shook Clinton's hand once and she said it felt like electricity jolting here when their hands touched, he was just that intense and charismatic. Try ignoring that when you are young and crushing on someone.

Not everyone that age is the same. You might have made a great choice at 18, many that age might not.

Yes, Bill is a hound dog... that was apparent even before Monica. And he didn't abuse her, but I also think the inherent difference in ages and the power dynamic definitely played into what he and she did. The brain dynamic thing is relevant to the fact that 18-25 year olds might not have the best judgment... she certainly didn't.

Edit: and as far as crimes committed, there are some states where adultery is still a crime... [en.wikipedia.org]




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/2021 10:22AM by PeterB.
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: Racer X
Date: October 15, 2021 05:26PM
Is it adultry for the single person though?

(I "stand" corrected, BTW)



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
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Re: Not exactly political, but... Monica Lewinsky...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: October 15, 2021 08:33PM
Quote
Racer X
Is it adultry for the single person though?

(I "stand" corrected, BTW)

From the wiki link I posted:

"Six U.S. states (Hawaii, North Carolina, Mississippi, New Mexico, South Dakota, and Utah) allow the possibility of the tort action of alienation of affections (brought by a deserted spouse against a third party alleged to be responsible for the failure of the marriage).[109][110] In a highly publicized case in 2010, a woman in North Carolina won a $9 million suit against her husband's mistress.[111][112]"




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