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ug, covid and the holidays. here we go....
Posted by: mattkime
Date: November 10, 2021 09:28PM
My family traditions largely involve gathering in my grandmother's house. The living room is packed, overflowing to the dining room and into the kitchen. Past that, perhaps the garage if its not too cold out.

My grandmother is 96 and we're not sure how much longer she's going to be in that house. If its up to her, she'll be there as long as she's with us but thats currently being tested due to a number of typical age related problems that become significant safety risks.

Today it was announce that we'll do thanksgiving as we normally would. This doesn't sit well with me considering the current infection rate. My extended family is about 85% vaxxed, the remainder are pretty much what you would expect. We don't have any 'rules' about needing to be vaxxed in part because it would kind of be like kicking someone out of the family but also because one of my grandmother's main caretakers isn't vaxxed. She's had covid without lasting effects and seems to be avoiding vaccination reasons that fail to add up.

After initially being annoyed that unvaccinated people would be there, its occurred to me that the normal level of crowding probably isn't a good idea either. I'm not sure how this is going to work out yet....I don't need to decide right away...but I'm leaning toward not going.

It seems there's no part of this we've gotten better at aside from most of us being vaccinated.



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Re: ug, covid and the holidays. here we go....
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: November 10, 2021 09:59PM
all you need is one
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Re: ug, covid and the holidays. here we go....
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: November 10, 2021 10:12PM
We've instructed those who are not vaxxed that they are not welcome at the holiday dinner.

...And it's too late now for them to get vaccinated and have sufficient protection prior to the holiday.



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Re: ug, covid and the holidays. here we go....
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: November 10, 2021 10:15PM
because one of my grandmother's main caretakers isn't vaxxed.



Whaaaaaat?!?!

Fwiw, this is exactly how a relative of an in law of mine died of covid. About similar age, too.
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Re: ug, covid and the holidays. here we go....
Posted by: mattkime
Date: November 10, 2021 10:49PM
Quote
mrbigstuff
because one of my grandmother's main caretakers isn't vaxxed.



Whaaaaaat?!?!

Fwiw, this is exactly how a relative of an in law of mine died of covid. About similar age, too.

Not so much one but two. Aunt (daughter of grandmother) and uncle who's a retired doctor. They had covid and don't feel a need to get vaxxed. They're the 'we're not anti-vax, we just don't think the time is right' sort. Their politics and media diet is what you'd expect. I thiiiink everyone else is vaxxed but there's a couple of people that would need confirmation. Oh, aside from their son's family who has similar politics. But he's a nurse sooooo....but he's also quieter about his views than his wife so we can only speculate.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2021 10:51PM by mattkime.
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Re: ug, covid and the holidays. here we go....
Posted by: RgrF
Date: November 11, 2021 01:07AM
I find that strange.

My own family descended as they are from the original six brothers and now composed of hundreds of souls separated by a continent, is totally unified about masking, vaxxing and keeping each other safe.

This even includes the two stupids who voted for Reagan (we're not an especially young bunch), but that's another story.
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Re: ug, covid and the holidays. here we go....
Posted by: Sam3
Date: November 11, 2021 03:25AM
Quote
RgrF
I find that strange.

My own family descended as they are from the original six brothers and now composed of hundreds of souls separated by a continent, is totally unified about masking, vaxxing and keeping each other safe.

This even includes the two stupids who voted for Reagan (we're not an especially young bunch), but that's another story.

Same with my family, though it's not as big as yours. Everyone is vaxxed, even my die-hard super-conservative brother-in-law. He's an EMT and I think the company mandated vaxxing, my wife and SIL are both nurses and were first in line to get vaxxed, even before the hospital mandated vaxxing to all employees.



The arts are not luxuries but assets that give way more than they cost.
--Ronald Tucker on YouTube

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open.
--Frank Zappa
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Re: ug, covid and the holidays. here we go....
Posted by: mstudio
Date: November 11, 2021 07:29AM
They're the 'we're not anti-vax, we just don't think the time is right' sort.

Well, no, they are anti-vax.

Personally, I would not go. I've said this before, just the fact you are questioning it means you have enough concerns for your own family.

I too can't relate, I'm one of seven and everyone is vaxxed along with their kids and their kid's kids. Unfortunately, we are spread way out so don't get together often.
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Re: ug, covid and the holidays. here we go....
Posted by: Robert M
Date: November 11, 2021 11:05AM
Matt,

I'm with Sarcany. Safety is the rule, not the exception. We would not be attending the Thanksgiving celebration. As I said in Bazooka's post about Covid travel: All individuals must be confirmed vaccinated and confirmed negative. No vaccination and negative tests, no visit. No exceptions. And, it is the same in reverse. If they aren't willing to abide by my requirements, then they're welcome celebrate without us.

Robert
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Re: ug, covid and the holidays. here we go....
Posted by: mattkime
Date: November 11, 2021 03:19PM
Robert - It sounds like I'd be more comfortable at your house than with my own family. Stranger things have happened.

---

There's been some back channel discussion thats made me feel better about what I've said and how other people are handling this. I'm not the only one that sees it as risky.



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Re: ug, covid and the holidays. here we go....
Posted by: Robert M
Date: November 11, 2021 03:58PM
Matt,

Thank you. I take that as a significant compliment.

Robert
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Re: ug, covid and the holidays. here we go....
Posted by: Racer X
Date: November 11, 2021 04:19PM
My partner's mom is dead because of a selfish and careless medical care professional who decided Thanksgiving with family or friends was more important that protecting the residents/patients who lived at the assisted living facility he/she worked at.

The facility was in lock-down, with the residents not leaving. Someone brought COVID in, and last I heard, in my "mother-in-law's" wing, 23 of the 24 residents contracted COVID, as did over 75% of the staff working in that wing. Fatality numbers are unreleased, but I know how my "mother-in-law" died, as my partner and I waited in, and slept in her room Christmas Eve, and Christmas Day, so "mom" wouldn't die alone. She eventually passed the morning of the 26th. As a nurse of over 5 decades of medical service, she NEVER would have risked that meal.


Only you can decide if a meal with friends and family is worth the risk. But remember, it's not just those at the table at risk. You need to take others not present into consideration. If you don't, that literally is the definition of inconsiderate and thoughtless.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2021 04:22PM by Racer X.
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Re: ug, covid and the holidays. here we go....
Posted by: mattkime
Date: November 11, 2021 05:39PM
I'd really like to find the right words for the unvaxxed in my family but I KNOW nearly anything I say will be received as "SEE! LIBERALS ARE SUCH @#$%&! NO RESPECT FOR MY PERSONAL FREEDOM!' ....and so I keep my mouth shut.



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Re: ug, covid and the holidays. here we go....
Posted by: abevilac
Date: November 11, 2021 05:45PM
We are gathering with my 96 yo mil but we are all vaxxed and boosted and all 9 of us will do a test beforehand but even given all that, I’m still a bit wary.
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Re: ug, covid and the holidays. here we go....
Posted by: Robert M
Date: November 11, 2021 05:53PM
Matt,

Don't be afraid to say, "Your personal freedom ends at the tip of my nose and when you breathe into my air." If they don't like it, they're welcome to go elsewhere and breathe into someone else's air.

Robert
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Re: ug, covid and the holidays. here we go....
Posted by: mattkime
Date: November 11, 2021 06:09PM
Quote
Robert M
Matt,

Don't be afraid to say, "Your personal freedom ends at the tip of my nose and when you breathe into my air." If they don't like it, they're welcome to go elsewhere and breathe into someone else's air.

Robert

Oh, I'm not, its more about who has contact with my grandmother but after mulling it over a bit I think its been settled in the way that things often are - a bunch of one off decisions that add up to something that doesn't quite make sense. I guess I just need to accept it. It would be different if someone could step in for my unvaxxed aunt as far as caretaking is concerned but thats unfortunately not the case.



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Re: ug, covid and the holidays. here we go....
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: November 11, 2021 07:32PM
One is all you need...

One is all you need...

I was talking to a friend about all the nurses (and other care givers) and cops that won't get vaccinated, and he was ok with that, because 'vaccinated people have got COVID and died'.

Then I commented about the number of unvaxxers in hospital with COVID and sick and/or dying, compared to the number of vaxxers in hospital, who are sick and/or dying.

Who is more likely to die?

And more importantly, how did those people, vaxxed and unvaxxed, get COVID in the first place?

Spontaneous incubation?

Every unvaxxer I've talked to has had the one anecdote of 'I know a 70yo couple who had it, it was mild, and they've fully recovered'.

Every.one.

But at 96, I think it's just too great of a risk, even if her caregiver is unvaccinated.

And that shouldn't be allowed or accepted.

If it were me and I couldn't stop it, I'd warn everybody that if something happens to her, i would make it my life's work to make theirs as miserable as possible.

YOU KILLED NANA.

Out of pure selfishness.

Nan, we want to make this Thanksgiving, possibly your last here, an especially memorable occasion. And some of us here don't care if it's your last Thanksgiving anywhere, because, let's face it Nan — you're old and your best years are in the rearview anyway. Can I have that Tiffany lamp? And the sliver?

Ok, maybe that's a little OTT, but not putting her health first is wrong.





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2021 07:32PM by RAMd®d.
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Re: ug, covid and the holidays. here we go....
Posted by: $tevie
Date: November 11, 2021 07:34PM
Quote

When I first received the invitation to the wedding where I would eventually get COVID, I was on the fence about attending at all.

The downside, of course, was the risk of exposure to COVID. Sure, I’m vaccinated—two shots of Pfizer—and the wedding’s other attendees would all be vaccinated too. But breakthrough cases happen, and we’d be in New Orleans in October, a place where cases were still high and vaccination was inconsistent. One could not expect to not get exposed to COVID.
But then I reasoned both with myself and with my wife. COVID was unlikely to kill me, a vaccinated 39-year-old endurance athlete. I would be fine, and even if I gave the coronavirus to any of my family members, they too would almost certainly be fine. My wife is vaccinated, and our young children’s risk of serious illness, while not nonexistent, is very low.
...
But the real worst-case scenario was everything that happened to the people around me. My kids had to come out of school and isolate with my wife. A raft of tests had to be taken by everyone I’d had even limited contact with. (I was one of at least a dozen people at the wedding who got sick.) I had been with several older people, including my mother-in-law. For my wife and children, the tests went on for days and days, each one bringing a prospective new disaster and 10 to 14 more days of life disruption or worse.

Getting Back to Normal Is Only Possible Until You Test Positive
I was ultracareful for 18 months. Then I got COVID.

[www.theatlantic.com]



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Re: ug, covid and the holidays. here we go....
Posted by: RgrF
Date: November 11, 2021 08:32PM
With all due deference to Suzanne who will outlive us all, both wife and I are creeping up on 80 - we didn't get here by listening to AM radio charlatans nor by listening to ignoramuses parading as spokespersons for some sort of god while selling gold futures.
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Re: ug, covid and the holidays. here we go....
Posted by: testcase
Date: November 12, 2021 12:15AM
In this morning's news, they said Covid is on the rise in 17 states.
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Re: ug, covid and the holidays. here we go....
Posted by: hal
Date: November 12, 2021 05:00PM
Quote
$tevie
Quote

When I first received the invitation to the wedding where I would eventually get COVID, I was on the fence about attending at all.

The downside, of course, was the risk of exposure to COVID. Sure, I’m vaccinated—two shots of Pfizer—and the wedding’s other attendees would all be vaccinated too. But breakthrough cases happen, and we’d be in New Orleans in October, a place where cases were still high and vaccination was inconsistent. One could not expect to not get exposed to COVID.
But then I reasoned both with myself and with my wife. COVID was unlikely to kill me, a vaccinated 39-year-old endurance athlete. I would be fine, and even if I gave the coronavirus to any of my family members, they too would almost certainly be fine. My wife is vaccinated, and our young children’s risk of serious illness, while not nonexistent, is very low.
...
But the real worst-case scenario was everything that happened to the people around me. My kids had to come out of school and isolate with my wife. A raft of tests had to be taken by everyone I’d had even limited contact with. (I was one of at least a dozen people at the wedding who got sick.) I had been with several older people, including my mother-in-law. For my wife and children, the tests went on for days and days, each one bringing a prospective new disaster and 10 to 14 more days of life disruption or worse.

Getting Back to Normal Is Only Possible Until You Test Positive
I was ultracareful for 18 months. Then I got COVID.

[www.theatlantic.com]

It's good to read these stories now and then as I feel the will power slip a bit. it only takes one mistake to undo all of this good work that we've done...
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Re: ug, covid and the holidays. here we go....
Posted by: mattkime
Date: November 12, 2021 06:11PM
I spoke to my direct family members and we'll be doing our own thanksgiving - we're all vaccinated, ASIDE FROM THE STUBBORN THREE YEAR OLD! :-)

My mom had already purchased a turkey so it was mostly miscommunication.

I think I need to find a few terse words for those who will be seeing my grandmother unvaccinated. I know they'll think I'm an ass and nothing will change but I can live with that. I'm not going to remain silent.

---

Oh, my mom has stopped asking her sister, the unvaxxed caretaker whether she's gotten vaccinated because she gets a condescending lecture of alternative facts. Maybe more of us - the vaxxed majority - need to speak up more.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2021 06:22PM by mattkime.
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Re: ug, covid and the holidays. here we go....
Posted by: Speedy
Date: November 12, 2021 08:29PM
Quote
mattkime
I spoke to my direct family members and we'll be doing our own thanksgiving - we're all vaccinated, ASIDE FROM THE STUBBORN THREE YEAR OLD! :-)

My mom had already purchased a turkey so it was mostly miscommunication.

I think I need to find a few terse words for those who will be seeing my grandmother unvaccinated. I know they'll think I'm an ass and nothing will change but I can live with that. I'm not going to remain silent.

---

Oh, my mom has stopped asking her sister, the unvaxxed caretaker whether she's gotten vaccinated because she gets a condescending lecture of alternative facts. Maybe more of us - the vaxxed majority - need to speak up more.

Does she drink? To excess? Can you get ahold of a vial of Moderna? No one need know.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: ug, covid and the holidays. here we go....
Posted by: deckeda
Date: November 13, 2021 09:42PM
Best anyone can do is isolate. The challenge vax-avoiders have is that they don’t see risk, only misplaced fear. This is less about making them understand and more about doing what you know is right. Stating that you’d prefer not to participate in a potentially unsafe event is enough. You’ll never convince them it might be unsafe.

It’s not about proof. It’s about mitigation and best practice, in context. Irrational people will not subscribe to anything but exact proof.
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Re: ug, covid and the holidays. here we go....
Posted by: mattkime
Date: November 14, 2021 09:00AM
Well, I found some words for those in my extended family who are unvaxxed and visiting Grandma - First, I'm making it clear that nearly everyone would prefer they be vaxxed. If they want to argue, I'm just going to ask if they're so certain of their beliefs that they're willing to put someone else's well being at risk.



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