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Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: December 19, 2021 10:48AM
Manchin says he will not vote for Build Back Better: 'This is a no'

Let's make it clear that the 50 traitorous, Republican saboteurs Senators have primarily made this possible.
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: graylocks
Date: December 19, 2021 11:17AM
Of course he did, bless his heart.



"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: vision63
Date: December 19, 2021 11:29AM
It's not killed. It's still resolvable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2021 11:35AM by vision63.
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: December 19, 2021 12:39PM
Quote
vision63
It's not killed. It's still resolvable.

Maybe next year.

A litany of legislative failures:
[www.nytimes.com]



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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: Ted King
Date: December 19, 2021 01:00PM
And that's why the House progressives tried to their best to link passage of the physical infrastructure bill with the Build Back Better bill.



e pluribus unum
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: Rolando
Date: December 19, 2021 01:48PM
Quote
Ted King
And that's why the House progressives tried to their best to link passage of the physical infrastructure bill with the Build Back Better bill.

This.agree smiley



San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
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"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: pdq
Date: December 19, 2021 02:04PM
What irritates me most is Manchin playing rope-a-dope all this time. So much for $3T is too much; half it. So much for the “agreement” with House progressives.

The most charitable interpretation is that he’s just flaky and changed his mind. I think it more likely that he knew all along he wasn’t going to vote for it and just yanked everyone around for uncertain reasons. I suspect he personally sought to gain stop-the-libs cred with his red state base.

Don’t know how it would be accomplished, but I’d make him pay for this if at all possible.
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: December 19, 2021 02:58PM
The next shoe to drop is when he flips to Republican, giving McConnell back the Senate. I expect that is the next week or two.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: vision63
Date: December 19, 2021 03:00PM
Quote
Ted King
And that's why the House progressives tried to their best to link passage of the physical infrastructure bill with the Build Back Better bill.

Then they voted no on it, while touting it to their constituents as if they invented it because projects are rolling out.
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: Ted King
Date: December 19, 2021 03:05PM
Quote
pdq
What irritates me most is Manchin playing rope-a-dope all this time. So much for $3T is too much; half it. So much for the “agreement” with House progressives.

The most charitable interpretation is that he’s just flaky and changed his mind. I think it more likely that he knew all along he wasn’t going to vote for it and just yanked everyone around for uncertain reasons. I suspect he personally sought to gain stop-the-libs cred with his red state base.

Don’t know how it would be accomplished, but I’d make him pay for this if at all possible.

[thehill.com]

Quote

In a more than 700-word statement, [Press Secretary] Psaki said, “If his comments on FOX and written statement indicate an end to that effort, they represent a sudden and inexplicable reversal in his position, and a breach of his commitments to the President and the Senator’s colleagues in the House and Senate.”

I didn't think he was this much of a duplicitous person, so I thought they'd agree on at least several billion dollars in programs from Biden's proposal. It's looking like your "rope-a-dope" characterization might be right.

He can redeem himself quite a bit in my eyes if he agrees with a carve-out of the filibuster for the voter protection bill and gets it past the Senate. But he won't. He doesn't care enough about protecting voting rights. He'll spew stuff about his position being all about preserving this sacred thing - the filibuster - but what it boils down to is that he doesn't think voting rights are all that important because he's voted to waive the filibuster for other things.



e pluribus unum
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: Ted King
Date: December 19, 2021 03:07PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
Ted King
And that's why the House progressives tried to their best to link passage of the physical infrastructure bill with the Build Back Better bill.

Then they voted no on it, while touting it to their constituents as if they invented it because projects are rolling out.

Why do you think they voted no?



e pluribus unum
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: Ted King
Date: December 19, 2021 03:09PM
Quote
Ombligo
The next shoe to drop is when he flips to Republican, giving McConnell back the Senate. I expect that is the next week or two.

Yesterday I would have said that that was unlikely, but today...



e pluribus unum
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: vision63
Date: December 19, 2021 03:09PM
Biden isn't a dummy. He's a former Senator. Down deep, he doesn't like a lot in this bill. He doesn't like how so much of it is temporarily funded. That's Manchin's big problem with it. Manchin wants to fund programs for a set period, say for 10 years with a sunset. This bill wants to fund programs for 3/4 years and be extended when they expire.

To Manchin, He wants to see precise funding for set periods. But Biden, can't come out and say this to his party. Not now. Manchin will show Democrats what he wants, but it just isn't the climate for Democrats to sign off on it. So now they have to play this game.

It would have been quicker and easier to go this route.

It’s Time for Democrats to Buck Up and Give Joe Manchin What He Wants
[slate.com]
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: RgrF
Date: December 19, 2021 03:15PM
Quote
vision63
It’s Time for Democrats to Buck Up and Give Joe Manchin What He Wants
[slate.com]

Hasn't it always been national policy to not give in to terrorists? smiley-gen081
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: vision63
Date: December 19, 2021 03:18PM
Quote
Ted King
Quote
Ombligo
The next shoe to drop is when he flips to Republican, giving McConnell back the Senate. I expect that is the next week or two.

Yesterday I would have said that that was unlikely, but today...

He's not a Republican. He supports the fundamentals of the bill. This guy has twitter, facebook and all other kinds of ways he communicates. For example, he supported raising the minimum wage. He put $11 an hour out there. It got rejected. Republicans put out $10 (Romney and Cotton) So now, instead of $11 we have $7.25.

Biden allowed Sanders to place a heavy hand on crafting the initial Infrastructure and BBB bills. He knew what was gonna happen.
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: pdq
Date: December 19, 2021 03:18PM
Quote
vision63
Biden isn't a dummy. He's a former Senator. Down deep, he doesn't like a lot in this bill. He doesn't like how so much of it is temporarily funded. That's Manchin's big problem with it. Manchin wants to fund programs for a set period, say for 10 years with a sunset. This bill wants to fund programs for 3/4 years and be extended when they expire.

To Manchin, He wants to see precise funding for set periods. But Biden, can't come out and say this to his party. Not now. Manchin will show Democrats what he wants, but it just isn't the climate for Democrats to sign off on it.

So you think Manchin wanted a bill with a larger price tag?

sneaky smiley

vis, I think you’ve gone around the bend with this one.
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: vision63
Date: December 19, 2021 03:25PM
Quote
RgrF
Quote
vision63
It’s Time for Democrats to Buck Up and Give Joe Manchin What He Wants
[slate.com]

Hasn't it always been national policy to not give in to terrorists? smiley-gen081

We gave into terrorists not fighting hard enough for Hillary. This is the civil war that breaks out after losing the big war.

It's all part of a timeline. We argue over the outer nature of political negations, and not the inner game which requires a lot of Capital. Manchin has a lot of it, but it's just for the moment.
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: pdq
Date: December 19, 2021 04:17PM
Just in case anyone…anyone thinks that Manchin was acting in good faith:

Quote

“Less than 30 minutes before” his appearance on the conservative news channel’s Sunday morning show, Manchin told an aide to notify the White House and members of his own party about his massive, sudden decision, Politico reports. An official at the White House told the outlet’s Playbook newsletter reporters that they placed a call to Manchin.

…Manchin “refused to take a call from White House staff,” they revealed.

…” I’ve done everything humanly possible,” Manchin claimed on air.

Yeah, letting the President of your own party know (thru an aide!) you’re screwing him over - on Faux News, of all places - and then not taking calls…sure sounds like “doing everything humanly possible” to make this work.

RollingEyesSmiley5

Jen Psaki, today:

Quote

“Senator Manchin’s comments this morning on FOX are at odds with his discussions this week with the President, with White House staff, and with his own public utterances. Weeks ago, Senator Manchin committed to the President, at his home in Wilmington, to support the Build Back Better framework that the President then subsequently announced.”

… “On Tuesday of this week, Senator Manchin came to the White House and submitted—to the President, in person, directly—a written outline for a Build Back Better bill that was the same size and scope as the President’s framework, and covered many of the same priorities”

So much for too expensive.

Honestly, I’d come down hard. Strip him of all committee assignments. Let him switch parties. He’s far worse than being a Republican.
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: mattkime
Date: December 19, 2021 04:41PM
Quote
pdq
Honestly, I’d come down hard. Strip him of all committee assignments. Let him switch parties. He’s far worse than being a Republican.

While I share your anger for Manchin, having him flip republican would be considerably worse. We're getting judges appointed.



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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: pdq
Date: December 19, 2021 04:55PM
Quote
mattkime
Quote
pdq
Honestly, I’d come down hard. Strip him of all committee assignments. Let him switch parties. He’s far worse than being a Republican.

While I share your anger for Manchin, having him flip republican would be considerably worse. We're getting judges appointed.

We’ll have to agree to disagree there. Manchin just went on Fox News and betrayed the country.

Call him on the carpet. We need to stand for something.
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: December 19, 2021 05:41PM
'Breaking: Man with Maserati and yacht against child tax credit, maternity leave, child care, and $35 insulin.'

Who is he representing when he says his constituents aren't smart enough to understand his reasons? I agree with Omar on this.



In tha 360. MRF User Map
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: prymsnap
Date: December 19, 2021 05:50PM
For some reason this latest turn of events is the straw that breaks the camel's back for me. I did not vote for or against Manchin but I (and you and the rest of the country) am under his thumb. Maybe tomorrow or next week or next month I'll rally enough to fight again, but right now I'm just done. Exhausted and done.
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: pdq
Date: December 20, 2021 09:22AM
I’m surprised (and irritated) that the initial coverage is pretending that Manchin wasn’t just jerking us along. Yes, he’s a red state Dem. He could have just said (a loong time ago, publicly or privately) that he didn’t feel it was politically feasible for him (to vote for things that his state, in particular, desperately needs).

But he didn’t. He said What’s your hurry? We should debate this fully. And then after months of delay, he abruptly slams the door, on Fox News. Five days after he presented the WH with his own ~$1.8T plan (that the WH had asked him for!) that they were largely prepared to give him. After the pundits were all Just give Manchin what he wants. Well, they let him write the bill!

But that’s not he wanted; he wanted to kill the bill, and he did it in the most damaging way possible.

Can’t support a bill that big.. Okay, Manchin, we’ll cut it down by half. Don’t like this provision.. Okay, we’ll completely drop this part you don’t like. Still don’t like it, can’t say why. Okay; why don’t you tell us exactly how you’d write the bill?

After months of moving the goalposts repeatedly, he cut them down entirely…and then claimed (with a straight face) that he’d done “everything humanly possible”. RollingEyesSmiley5

He never intended to vote for this, in any way shape, or form, but it was still alive, and when it became clear that no one else was going to come along to kill it, he decided it was up to him.

The progressives were right. Trusting guys like this is a sucker’s game.
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: Sam3
Date: December 20, 2021 09:24AM
Quote
vision63
Biden isn't a dummy. He's a former Senator. Down deep, he doesn't like a lot in this bill. He doesn't like how so much of it is temporarily funded. That's Manchin's big problem with it. Manchin wants to fund programs for a set period, say for 10 years with a sunset. This bill wants to fund programs for 3/4 years and be extended when they expire.

To Manchin, He wants to see precise funding for set periods. But Biden, can't come out and say this to his party. Not now. Manchin will show Democrats what he wants, but it just isn't the climate for Democrats to sign off on it. So now they have to play this game.

It would have been quicker and easier to go this route.

It’s Time for Democrats to Buck Up and Give Joe Manchin What He Wants
[slate.com]

I guess the folks here commenting didn't actually actually read vision's linked analysis. I find the author spot on, I think it makes sense. Thanks for posting it.

I still don't like Manchin, however.



The arts are not luxuries but assets that give way more than they cost.
--Ronald Tucker on YouTube

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open.
--Frank Zappa
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: pdq
Date: December 20, 2021 09:49AM
From the linked piece:

Quote

I don’t want to leave the impression that Joe Manchin has been an overall force for good or sanity in the BBB negotiations. He’s weakened the bill’s climate provisions (though they remain very strong regardless). And his insistence on capping the size of the legislation is a major part of the reason Democrats have resorted to budget gimmicks like temporary funding in the first place. I would also argue that it doesn’t make sense for Democrats to fully pay for the cost of spending that is meant to be temporary, such as green energy tax credits designed to transition the grid off of fossil fuels; mainstream public finance theory suggests that kind of spending can be safely deficit-financed.

But if you accept Manchin’s demand to keep the bill’s total around $2 trillion—and at this point, Democrats have—then it also makes sense to design the legislation his way, with fewer programs set to last long-term. Caving to Manchin’s demands will require Democrats to sacrifice some worthy parts of their agenda. But it’s time for them to buck up and do it, lest they end up with nothing at all.

…and, by all accounts, that’s exactly what they were doing - essentially letting him write the bill. But all of Manchin’s ever-changing (or secret) objections were designed to make that impossible.
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: pdq
Date: December 20, 2021 10:11AM
What Manchin wanted, got, and then rejected in Biden's $2T bill*

Quote

During a private meeting in July, Sen. Joe Manchin and Majority Leader Chuck Schumer sat down to negotiate what exactly it would take for Democrats to unlock Manchin's vote to start the process of considering President Joe Biden’s massive social and environmental bill…Both signed it, with reservations.

Nearly five months later, much of what Manchin wanted has been delivered. But fellow Democrats appear nowhere close to gaining the conservative senator's support…

For example:

Quote

Manchin wrote in the document that he wanted a $1. 5 trillion topline — far less than the $3.5 trillion Biden proposed.

Biden halved the amount to $1.75 trillion when it became clear Manchin could accept that.

Manchin wanted to begin debate on the legislation no earlier than Oct. 1…That date has passed.

Manchin insisted the corporate tax rate, which Biden proposed raising to 28%, not inch past 25%. In fact, it ended up not being raised at all…

[Manchin,] the coal-state senator, insisted on a “fuel neutral” energy policy — essentially one that does not favor wind, solar and other renewable energy sources over fossil fuels, such as coal and natural…After Manchin objected, the White House scrapped plans for a nationwide clean energy standard that environmental advocates viewed as the most significant tool for curbing climate change.

…and on and on and on. They finally said, okay, you write it. But that was not enough, because that’s not what he wanted. He wanted it to die. He just wouldn’t deal honestly with his colleagues.

Quote

Rep. Pramila Jayapal, D-Wash., leader of the Congressional Progressive Caucus… said Manchin agreed to a framework for the bill in October, which spelled out the plan’s priorities and costs but didn’t limit the duration of any of them. Manchin, she predicted, will “hold to his commitment."

How quaint. I admire her for expecting Manchin to live up to his commitments, but he’s not that kind of guy.

——-

*I made a slight editorial modification to the title of the linked piece; I think it more accurately reflects what happened.
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: December 20, 2021 10:27AM
Manchin is protecting the 0.1%. He doesn't care about his constituents. Same thing for Sinema, she cares much more about business owners than the working class.

Remember, the Senate is 48 Dems, 2 Independents that usually vote Dem, and 50 Repubs. I said it almost a year ago, Dems need to find an attractive alternative and primary Manchin. I now think Sinema falls into that camp, and maybe Gillibrand too. They nearly snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by not turning enough Senate seats in 2020 when independents were turning out to reject the party of the Mango Mussolini.

17 Republican Senate seats up for election in 2022. How many of those races have viable Democratic candidates? Five are listed as less than solid R: Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, and Florida. These are possible battlegrounds for Republicans. Dems have three vulnerable states they absolutely need to keep: Arizona, Georgia, and Nevada. Turning two Senate seats would take the power from Sinema and Manchin.



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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: Sam3
Date: December 20, 2021 10:34AM
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
Manchin is protecting the 0.1%. He doesn't care about his constituents. Same thing for Sinema, she cares much more about business owners than the working class.

Remember, the Senate is 48 Dems, 2 Independents that usually vote Dem, and 50 Repubs. I said it almost a year ago, Dems need to find an attractive alternative and primary Manchin. I now think Sinema falls into that camp, and maybe Gillibrand too. They nearly snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by not turning enough Senate seats in 2020 when independents were turning out to reject the party of the Mango Mussolini.

17 Republican Senate seats up for election in 2022. How many of those races have viable Democratic candidates? Five are listed as less than solid R: Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, and Florida. These are possible battlegrounds for Republicans. Dems have three vulnerable states they absolutely need to keep: Arizona, Georgia, and Nevada. Turning two Senate seats would take the power from Sinema and Manchin.

Michigan has 2 Dem senators, Peters and Stabenow. Not sure why you thought Michigan was less than solid R.



The arts are not luxuries but assets that give way more than they cost.
--Ronald Tucker on YouTube

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open.
--Frank Zappa
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: deckeda
Date: December 20, 2021 11:22AM
I read the Slate piece and it seems entirely reasonable to expect someone to ask for fewer items funded, longer. But that’s so fundamentally different that I have to ask, did Manchin articulate that on Fox? And if not, why not?

And if Biden was willing to continue talking into next month, why the need to kneecap that?
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: bfd
Date: December 20, 2021 11:23AM
Remember, to stay in "power" these asshats all have to amass mountains of money. And that money isn't coming from "the general public".

What makes some of them "very special" is that they not only amass mountains of money, but they pander to the lowest common denominator in society, so they also amass mountains of votes.

Problem here is that there's no scenario short of a massive stroke or heart failure that can remove Manchin from the Senate. Politics at its finest, your gubmint dollars at work!
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: Ted King
Date: December 20, 2021 11:29AM
Quote
pdq
What Manchin wanted, got, and then rejected in Biden's $2T bill*

Manchin insisted the corporate tax rate, which Biden proposed raising to 28%, not inch past 25%. In fact, it ended up not being raised at all…

That's one of the things that is really galling to me about what Manchin has done. He basically insisted on little to no tax increases that were included in Biden's proposal that would have paid for a big chunk of the spending. And then he turned around and used the fact that deficit spending would go up so much if the proposed bill was passed to argue against the bill. More evidence he never really wanted any part of the Build Back Better bill.

I think it looks like Manchin really, really wanted the "roads and bridges" infrastructure bill passed and couldn't get it past progressives unless he committed to supporting the Build Back Better bill (with significant reductions). It seems like once he got his infrastructure bill passed, then he went big time into rope-a-dope. I suspect he thought he could keep the rope-a-dope going a fair bit longer before finding some excuse to ditch Build Back Better but got mad that fellow Democrats and journalists were pressing him hard on what the heck he was doing, so he just said f**k you guys, I'll go to Fox and flip you all a giant bird.



e pluribus unum



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2021 12:00PM by Ted King.
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: vision63
Date: December 20, 2021 01:26PM
Quote
Ted King
Quote
pdq
What Manchin wanted, got, and then rejected in Biden's $2T bill*

Manchin insisted the corporate tax rate, which Biden proposed raising to 28%, not inch past 25%. In fact, it ended up not being raised at all…

That's one of the things that is really galling to me about what Manchin has done. He basically insisted on little to no tax increases that were included in Biden's proposal that would have paid for a big chunk of the spending. And then he turned around and used the fact that deficit spending would go up so much if the proposed bill was passed to argue against the bill. More evidence he never really wanted any part of the Build Back Better bill.

I think it looks like Manchin really, really wanted the "roads and bridges" infrastructure bill passed and couldn't get it past progressives unless he committed to supporting the Build Back Better bill (with significant reductions). It seems like once he got his infrastructure bill passed, then he went big time into rope-a-dope. I suspect he thought he could keep the rope-a-dope going a fair bit longer before finding some excuse to ditch Build Back Better but got mad that fellow Democrats and journalists were pressing him hard on what the heck he was doing, so he just said f**k you guys, I'll go to Fox and flip you all a giant bird.

He wants this bill. His people want it. Hillary Clinton mentioned polling today that indicates that 68% of West Virginians want it. This is why it will eventually pass.

I find everybody's "takes" interesting. He isn't that complicated a man. There is a real method to his madness that really doesn't have that much to do with this bill. People talk about him and Synema as if they're the only two vulnerable Democrats in the Senate. Jon Tester of Montana is just as vulnerable. He's a demonstrable guy but he plays ball. I wish people would give him more dap for that.

Steve Schmidt (of all people) really breaks down what at stake for Manchin from Manchin's perspective in a perceptive thread. He's telling the truth and it makes sense even though it's very frustrating.

[twitter.com]
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: Ted King
Date: December 20, 2021 02:23PM
Quote
vision63

Steve Schmidt (of all people) really breaks down what at stake for Manchin from Manchin's perspective in a perceptive thread. He's telling the truth and it makes sense even though it's very frustrating.

[twitter.com]

All I see in that tweet thread is that Democrats denying Manchin committee assignments isn't a good idea. I don't think many Democrats in D.C. think that doing so is a good idea and neither do I so that's not adding much.

Beyond that he pretty much just says that he believes Manchin will come back to going for some kind of Build Back Better bill (probably have to be renamed if he does) after the new year because many of his constituents will have something to gain from it. That's pretty thin gruel. I'll believe it when I see it.



e pluribus unum
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: December 20, 2021 02:29PM
Quote
bfd
Problem here is that there's no scenario short of a massive stroke or heart failure that can remove Manchin from the Senate. Politics at its finest, your gubmint dollars at work!

wouldn't matter - The Democrat WV governor flipped to the Republican party a few months after being elected. He did so at a Trump Rally.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: vision63
Date: December 20, 2021 03:00PM
Quote
Ombligo
Quote
bfd
Problem here is that there's no scenario short of a massive stroke or heart failure that can remove Manchin from the Senate. Politics at its finest, your gubmint dollars at work!

wouldn't matter - The Democrat WV governor flipped to the Republican party a few months after being elected. He did so at a Trump Rally.

He sure did. These guys are not brave.
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: December 20, 2021 03:06PM
Quote
Ted King
All I see in that tweet thread is that Democrats denying Manchin committee assignments isn't a good idea. I don't think many Democrats in D.C. think that doing so is a good idea and neither do I so that's not adding much...

I think it's a great idea.

To all appearances, he's poised to jump to the Republican Party (some say "independent") in January, regardless. That's why he made the announcement on Faux News.

Committee and commission assignments are huge money-makers via the associated allowances on top of salaries, and provide gateways for lots of lobbying money, and let politicians brag about their influence come election-time.

Take that away from him before he goes. Let him beg for a seat at the table when he gives the Republicans the majority.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2021 03:08PM by Sarcany.
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: pdq
Date: December 20, 2021 04:28PM
I agree w this ^
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: December 20, 2021 05:00PM
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Sam3
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Filliam H. Muffman
Manchin is protecting the 0.1%. He doesn't care about his constituents. Same thing for Sinema, she cares much more about business owners than the working class.

Remember, the Senate is 48 Dems, 2 Independents that usually vote Dem, and 50 Repubs. I said it almost a year ago, Dems need to find an attractive alternative and primary Manchin. I now think Sinema falls into that camp, and maybe Gillibrand too. They nearly snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by not turning enough Senate seats in 2020 when independents were turning out to reject the party of the Mango Mussolini.

17 Republican Senate seats up for election in 2022. How many of those races have viable Democratic candidates? Five are listed as less than solid R: Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, and Florida. These are possible battlegrounds for Republicans. Dems have three vulnerable states they absolutely need to keep: Arizona, Georgia, and Nevada. Turning two Senate seats would take the power from Sinema and Manchin.

Michigan has 2 Dem senators, Peters and Stabenow. Not sure why you thought Michigan was less than solid R.

Sorry, brain fade. Somehow got Wisconsin and Michigan mixed up.



In tha 360. MRF User Map
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: $tevie
Date: December 20, 2021 06:22PM
If I was in charge, I'd put everything back into the bill the way it was before Manchin got his dirty paws on it.
I'd begin a massive PR campaign to explain BBB to the public rather than let the GOP and the media scare everyone with the "OMG 1.75 trillion!" crapola. Congress just gave the Pentagon $778 Billion for ONE year. Someone smarter than me can do the math and show how defense spending dwarfs BBB and if we stop forcing unwanted projects down the military's throats we can instantly have more money for Biden's agenda.

Then after the bill is defeated, and it will be, I would do a PR blitz naming the Senators who voted against it and say things like "Senator XXX would rather pay $75 billion to Lockheed Martin than lower your insulin cost to $35 a month." "Senator YYY would rather pay for a plane that the military said they do not want, than to help a woman get off welfare by providing child care." "Senator ZZZ would rather fix the infrastructure in German military bases than fix the bridge in your home town." or whatever, these are super rough ideas.



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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: RgrF
Date: December 20, 2021 06:56PM
Bringing elements of the omnibus as separate free standing bills and forcing a vote on each over a period of time has appeal. Make it like the drip, drip, drip of water torture and make it last right up until mid-terms.
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: December 20, 2021 10:02PM
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RgrF
Bringing elements of the omnibus as separate free standing bills and forcing a vote on each over a period of time has appeal. Make it like the drip, drip, drip of water torture and make it last right up until mid-terms.

This tactic is probably how they should proceed. People don't have the mental capacity to comprehend dozens upon dozens of initiatives at once.
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: vision63
Date: December 21, 2021 12:29AM
Quote
$tevie
If I was in charge, I'd put everything back into the bill the way it was before Manchin got his dirty paws on it.
I'd begin a massive PR campaign to explain BBB to the public rather than let the GOP and the media scare everyone with the "OMG 1.75 trillion!" crapola. Congress just gave the Pentagon $778 Billion for ONE year. Someone smarter than me can do the math and show how defense spending dwarfs BBB and if we stop forcing unwanted projects down the military's throats we can instantly have more money for Biden's agenda.

Then after the bill is defeated, and it will be, I would do a PR blitz naming the Senators who voted against it and say things like "Senator XXX would rather pay $75 billion to Lockheed Martin than lower your insulin cost to $35 a month." "Senator YYY would rather pay for a plane that the military said they do not want, than to help a woman get off welfare by providing child care." "Senator ZZZ would rather fix the infrastructure in German military bases than fix the bridge in your home town." or whatever, these are super rough ideas.

Couldn't hurt.
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: vision63
Date: December 21, 2021 12:40AM
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RgrF
Bringing elements of the omnibus as separate free standing bills and forcing a vote on each over a period of time has appeal. Make it like the drip, drip, drip of water torture and make it last right up until mid-terms.

That's certainly a way to do it. It's not like it's the end of bill creation. There's the reconciliation aspect that would include CBO and the Senate Parliamentarian and the Byrd Rule (Byrd Bath) to consider.

It's hard to do good stuff for people.
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: pdq
Date: December 21, 2021 08:01AM
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RgrF
Bringing elements of the omnibus as separate free standing bills and forcing a vote on each over a period of time has appeal. Make it like the drip, drip, drip of water torture and make it last right up until mid-terms.

I don’t think that would work with the filibuster in place. The GOP would shoot down each one, one after the other, and there’d be nothing passed, with the Dems looking ineffectual.

Politics is the art of the possible. BBB looked very possible until Manchin got on Fox News.
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: December 21, 2021 10:16AM
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pdq
Quote
RgrF
Bringing elements of the omnibus as separate free standing bills and forcing a vote on each over a period of time has appeal. Make it like the drip, drip, drip of water torture and make it last right up until mid-terms.

I don’t think that would work with the filibuster in place. The GOP would shoot down each one, one after the other, and there’d be nothing passed, with the Dems looking ineffectual.

Politics is the art of the possible. BBB looked very possible until Manchin got on Fox News.

That is missing the point, though. If you bring up each bill, say for lower-cost (dare we say, "low cost") insulin, then the public understands more clearly what we are talking about.
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: RgrF
Date: December 23, 2021 03:50PM
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Re: Manchin plus 50 Republicans kill much needed Recovry Bill
Posted by: Speedy
Date: December 24, 2021 07:06PM
It wouldn’t be a cab, it’d be a limo.

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RgrF



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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