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Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: June 02, 2022 12:44AM
Poll
Is it time to revisit, restate and codify who and what America is?
Only registered users are allowed to vote for this poll.
30 votes were received.
Yes, bring our guiding principles into the 21st century. 6
 
20%
No, the Constitution is the backbone of this country that’s been continually carefully molded and shaped to fit the country over many generations. 2
 
7%
It’s a solid document, an excellent foundation that at most, could do with a very few tweaks and polishes performed with only the utmost of care and with changes by overwhelming consensus. 12
 
40%
No. The process that has gotten us this far is exactly as deliberative and guarded as a precious document like the Constitution demands. 5
 
17%
It’s not broken. Don’t even think about “fixing” it. 5
 
16%



I was on another site, reading about the Oklahoma hospital shooting, and in the comments section someone I can only imagine was a younger respondent, was bemoaning that Republicans “…care more about
assault weapons and an old outdated paper than the lives of innocent Americans.”
, referring to the Bill of Rights and the second amendment.

Gun arguments immediately flew to the back of my mind and one intriguing, mammoth question stood front and center.

What would a constitution of the United States look like if it was written today?

Maybe just as big a question, given the 1001 to the tenth power clashes over “rights” drowning our country today, dare we even think about an update? Could a rethink actually be overdue?



National Suicide Prevention Lifeline
As of July 16, 2022, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is now available by simply dialing 988. The previous number, 1-800-273-8255, will remain active.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: RgrF
Date: June 02, 2022 01:38AM
The problem would be the undue influence money would have, not unlike what majority SCOTUS originalist ideology would have us live under. (ending a sentence with an adverb was a Cardinal sin according to Sister Emmanuel)

There are some bottles you don't want to uncap, especially if there are well funded Murdoch types waiting in the wings who are all too willing to write that new Constitution in their own image.
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: Racer X
Date: June 02, 2022 02:55AM
There are literally billions who wish they could have what we have.



********************************************
“A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.” Seneca the Younger

The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)

Judge Lee wrote that “we cannot jettison our constitutional rights, even if the goal behind a law is laudable." 9th Circuit Court of Appeals

[www.youtube.com]
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: June 02, 2022 04:08AM
Quote
Racer X
There are literally billions who wish they could have what we have.

Is that an argument against improving it?



National Suicide Prevention Lifeline
As of July 16, 2022, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is now available by simply dialing 988. The previous number, 1-800-273-8255, will remain active.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: Speedy
Date: June 02, 2022 05:20AM
It would be nice to rewrite the 2nd Amendment to: “All people of any age may use any weapon of any kind and type at will without restriction.”



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2022 10:57AM by Speedy.
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: gabester
Date: June 02, 2022 06:29AM
Imagine had that original Constitution not had some of its "grand compromises" especially with regards to slavery. Imagine had the white men planning ans debating considered truly adhered to the Declaration of Independence and focused on the rights of humanity more than the rights of the nation, the states, and property.

A new constitutional convention to add necessary amendments and edits - clarifying the intent of the 2nd Amendment, implicit rights like privacy and bodily autonomy, the ERA, whether or not corporations are people, and weakening the influence of both wealth and political parties on elections and governance would go a long ways, but how to convene one that was free of the same perversions and corruptions we are suffering under today is beyond me.



g=
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: June 02, 2022 08:22AM
There is a defined process to amend the constitution. And it's HARD. Damn hard. And that's for good reason, to avoid dumb over-reactions.
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: June 02, 2022 08:57AM
There is not a single soul on the planet that I would trust with the task of rewriting our Constitution.



It is what it is.
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: June 02, 2022 09:00AM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
There is not a single soul on the planet that I would trust with the task of rewriting our Constitution.

Except it has been rewritten a number of times. Remember Prohibition? And that silly women's right to vote business?
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: Ted King
Date: June 02, 2022 09:08AM
Quote
cbelt3
There is a defined process to amend the constitution. And it's HARD. Damn hard. And that's for good reason, to avoid dumb over-reactions.

Making it hard to amend the Constitution to avoid dumb over-reactions is a big upside to the way the Constitution is set up. Unfortunately, the big downside that comes with it is that a relatively small minority can block changes that really need to be made like ditching the Electoral College. Small population largely rural states will never let us get rid of the Electoral College because it favors them so strongly (even though it led us to have a bottom quartile president in 2000 and the worst president of all time in 2016). The same goes with the part of the Constitution that gives every state two Senators even if they only have less than 2% of the population of the largest population state. Those small population largely rural states will never allow that to change no matter how gross the disparity in population is because it gives them disproportionately so much power.



e pluribus unum



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2022 09:10AM by Ted King.
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: anonymouse1
Date: June 02, 2022 10:17AM
I wouldn't say overwhelming consensus, but yeah.
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: SDGuy
Date: June 02, 2022 10:24AM
to me, "rewritten" implies tossing out the current version in its entirety and starting from scratch, whereas an "amendment", is additional language added onto the existing document (and takes precedence over previous wording if there appears to be a conflict between the two).
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: timg
Date: June 02, 2022 11:23AM
Clarified would be good.

As it is, the Constitution has been "interpreted" to mean what the justices want it to mean too often.

The second amendment is a good example. I'm very sure the founding fathers did not want to arm the entire population and expected that only the "well regulated militia" would be armed if and when needed only.



Skill without imagination is craftsmanship. Imagination without skill is Modern Art.
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: deckeda
Date: June 02, 2022 11:24AM
The commenter was referencing how 2A doesn’t protect Americans against gun violence. So on that issue it’s valid criticism.

There’s nothing at all wrong with 2A. It’s actually irrelevant and benign because the circumstance it addresses hasn’t existed since back when a farmer’s musket could answer to any government’s rifle. Let the people have as many ARs as they want: Every “tyrannical government” has toys no one else ever will. 2A does not and cannot equal that playing field, which leaves us with interpreting it as something 2A never said: “Hey I just want to scare my neighbor and kill birds.”

The threat comes from modern interpretation and politicization of it.
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: June 02, 2022 12:59PM
Quote
Steve G.
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
There is not a single soul on the planet that I would trust with the task of rewriting our Constitution.

Except it has been rewritten a number of times. Remember Prohibition? And that silly women's right to vote business?

Big difference between amending and rewriting, Steve. Use your brain.



It is what it is.
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: vision63
Date: June 02, 2022 01:04PM
We can "revisit" it all we wan't, it won't change on the "behalf" of the people. Only to our detriment. The people on "my side" of the political spectrum are too content with losing elections.
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: Racer X
Date: June 02, 2022 01:36PM
Quote
Blankity Blank
Quote
Racer X
There are literally billions who wish they could have what we have.

Is that an argument against improving it?

No, it is saying as flawed as it is, a large portion of the planet is FAR worse off than us.

The laws it lays out are fine. Why are people BREAKING them? Any of them.



********************************************
“A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.” Seneca the Younger

The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)

Judge Lee wrote that “we cannot jettison our constitutional rights, even if the goal behind a law is laudable." 9th Circuit Court of Appeals

[www.youtube.com]
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: Racer X
Date: June 02, 2022 01:39PM
Quote
cbelt3
There is a defined process to amend the constitution. And it's HARD. Damn hard. And that's for good reason, to avoid dumb over-reactions.

The fact that it was Amended to ban alcohol is a good example. I forget. Was that a Constitutional Convention, or was it the legislature?



********************************************
“A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.” Seneca the Younger

The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)

Judge Lee wrote that “we cannot jettison our constitutional rights, even if the goal behind a law is laudable." 9th Circuit Court of Appeals

[www.youtube.com]
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: June 02, 2022 01:52PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
Steve G.
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
There is not a single soul on the planet that I would trust with the task of rewriting our Constitution.

Except it has been rewritten a number of times. Remember Prohibition? And that silly women's right to vote business?

Big difference between amending and rewriting, Steve. Use your brain.

So you think the conversation is about scraping the entire document?
I believe that only the tiny group of 'new constitutional convention' fringers are pushing for that.

Amending the Constitution is rewriting it.
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: Racer X
Date: June 02, 2022 02:13PM
I think I get the distinction being made. Rewriting would involves going through it front to back and changing. Amending is tacking on an Amendment onto the end, adding a chapter if you will, that clarifies or changes something said before.

The anti-slavery amendment essentially clarified that slaves were indeed "men" and thus were "equal" and as such, couldn't be owned, and were freed. That's my functional take on it.

I hope this makes sense.



********************************************
“A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.” Seneca the Younger

The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)

Judge Lee wrote that “we cannot jettison our constitutional rights, even if the goal behind a law is laudable." 9th Circuit Court of Appeals

[www.youtube.com]
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: SDGuy
Date: June 02, 2022 02:14PM
Quote
Steve G.
...Amending the Constitution is rewriting it.

I think what we have here is a failure to communicate

to have a discussion, it's probably best if the participants agree on the definitions of the words they are using; in this case "amend" and "rewrite".
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: June 02, 2022 02:38PM
Quote
SDGuy
Quote
Steve G.
...Amending the Constitution is rewriting it.

I think what we have here is a failure to communicate

to have a discussion, it's probably best if the participants agree on the definitions of the words they are using; in this case "amend" and "rewrite".

Based on your earlier post to the thread, you and I are already on the same page about this.

To me, at least, it's an obvious distinction. Steve is just being difficult... or recalcitrant... or obtuse... take your pick.



It is what it is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2022 02:40PM by N-OS X-tasy!.
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: June 02, 2022 02:40PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!

To me, at least, it's an obvious distinction. Steve is just being difficult.

Steve is observing the re-write process built in by the Founding Fathers.
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: June 02, 2022 03:12PM
Quote
Steve G.
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!

To me, at least, it's an obvious distinction. Steve is just being difficult.

Steve is observing the re-write process built in by the Founding Fathers.

They are called "amendments," Steve, not "rewritements."

Now you're just being pedantic - it doesn't suit you.



It is what it is.
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: June 02, 2022 03:21PM
Actually, I'm arguing for amending being the solution to the problems many see. That's at the core of what I'm saying.
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: Acer
Date: June 02, 2022 03:32PM
Theoretically, an amendment could replace the entirety of the Constitution that came before this uber-amendment with a defacto new one. Something similar happened in Japan under the Allied Occupation.
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: Racer X
Date: June 02, 2022 04:43PM
Quote
Acer
Theoretically, an amendment could replace the entirety of the Constitution that came before this uber-amendment with a defacto new one. Something similar happened in Japan under the Allied Occupation.

I wasn't consciously aware of that but it makes complete sense. That's how the Emperor became ceremonial I assume.



********************************************
“A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.” Seneca the Younger

The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)

Judge Lee wrote that “we cannot jettison our constitutional rights, even if the goal behind a law is laudable." 9th Circuit Court of Appeals

[www.youtube.com]
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: June 02, 2022 05:10PM
Quote
Acer
Theoretically, an amendment could replace the entirety of the Constitution that came before this uber-amendment with a defacto new one. Something similar happened in Japan under the Allied Occupation.

Such an amendment would have to meet the same requirements for approval as any other proposed amendment. Such a thing could (hopefully) never happen.



It is what it is.
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: June 02, 2022 05:13PM
Quote
Steve G.
Actually, I'm arguing for amending being the solution to the problems many see. That's at the core of what I'm saying.

So use the same terminology that everyone else has used for 235 years to describe that exact process. I think you'll find doing so will expedite the discussion.



It is what it is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2022 05:13PM by N-OS X-tasy!.
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: testcase
Date: June 02, 2022 06:01PM
Quote
Racer X
There are literally billions who wish they could have what we have.

Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
There are literally billions who wish they could have what we have.



THESE!


The Federal government has been "militarizing" local police for YEARS now. WHY??? Congress has been SECRETLY creating powers it is NOT authorized to do. WHY???

Ask the people in the Ukraine today if they would like to have more or less guns (and every other kind of weapon).

There are still a small (and declining) number of Jews who were almost exterminated by Hitler and his minions. Ask them if they wish they could have fought back more effectively.

Despots around the world and throughout time have used their power (often attained illegally) to oppress their populations, amass personal wealth and crush opponents. The paraphrased quote: "I would NEVER attack the United States mainland. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." has been attributed to Japanese Admiral Yamamoto. Even if he did not say it, the crux of said quote is quite accurate.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; if the Constitution is "gutted" (rewritten) it will cease to exist in less than 25 years. The Second Amendment is THE backbone of the Constitution.
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: Racer X
Date: June 02, 2022 06:12PM
very well said.



********************************************
“A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand.” Seneca the Younger

The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)

Judge Lee wrote that “we cannot jettison our constitutional rights, even if the goal behind a law is laudable." 9th Circuit Court of Appeals

[www.youtube.com]
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: June 02, 2022 06:28PM
Quote
testcase
Quote
Racer X
There are literally billions who wish they could have what we have.

Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
There are literally billions who wish they could have what we have.



THESE!


The Federal government has been "militarizing" local police for YEARS now. WHY??? Congress has been SECRETLY creating powers it is NOT authorized to do. WHY???

Ask the people in the Ukraine today if they would like to have more or less guns (and every other kind of weapon).

There are still a small (and declining) number of Jews who were almost exterminated by Hitler and his minions. Ask them if they wish they could have fought back more effectively.

Despots around the world and throughout time have used their power (often attained illegally) to oppress their populations, amass personal wealth and crush opponents. The paraphrased quote: "I would NEVER attack the United States mainland. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." has been attributed to Japanese Admiral Yamamoto. Even if he did not say it, the crux of said quote is quite accurate.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; if the Constitution is "gutted" (rewritten) it will cease to exist in less than 25 years. The Second Amendment is THE backbone of the Constitution.

Ummm... I didn't say ANY of that. Why am I being quoted as such?



It is what it is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2022 06:29PM by N-OS X-tasy!.
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: June 02, 2022 06:37PM
Quote
testcase
Despots around the world and throughout time have used their power (often attained illegally) to oppress their populations, amass personal wealth and crush opponents.

In recent times, what "despot" has been overthrown by relatively lightly armed* citizenry using those arms in combat with the "despot's" armed forces? XXXJust curious.

*Not equivalently armed to the "despots" armed forces.
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: Acer
Date: June 02, 2022 07:17PM
The Second Amendment didn't save us from the Civil War.

The backbone of the United States is that its citizens politely agree to not kill each other (outside of the usual background level of crime, that is). The Constitution is written to support this, but at any time the people, or a state, or any of the three branches could decide to ignore it, and it's game over.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2022 07:21PM by Acer.
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: June 02, 2022 08:10PM
Quote
Acer
The Second Amendment didn't save us from the Civil War.

Heh... I just noticed the close similarity between the words "Second" and "Sacred."



It is what it is.
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: testcase
Date: June 03, 2022 06:33PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
testcase
Quote
Racer X
There are literally billions who wish they could have what we have.

Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
There are literally billions who wish they could have what we have.



THESE!


The Federal government has been "militarizing" local police for YEARS now. W

HY??? Congress has been SECRETLY creating powers it is NOT authorized to do. WHY???

Ask the people in the Ukraine today if they would like to have more or less guns (and every other kind of weapon).

There are still a small (and declining) number of Jews who were almost exterminated by Hitler and his minions. Ask them if they wish they could have fought back more effectively.

Despots around the world and throughout time have used their power (often attained illegally) to oppress their populations, amass personal wealth and crush opponents. The paraphrased quote: "I would NEVER attack the United States mainland. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." has been attributed to Japanese Admiral Yamamoto. Even if he did not say it, the crux of said quote is quite accurate.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; if the Constitution is "gutted" (rewritten) it will cease to exist in less than 25 years. The Second Amendment is THE backbone of the Constitution.

Ummm... I didn't say ANY of that. Why am I being quoted as such?

MY mistake. I was trying to quote TWO prior posts and botched it. I believe the N-OS extasy! quopte I was attempting was "There is not a single soul on the planet that I would trust with the task of rewriting our Constitution."

I too think that sentiment is spot on.

I appologize for any confusion I may have caused. banghead smiley
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Re: Out of the mouths of babes. The Constitution, “an old outdated paper”?
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: June 03, 2022 07:04PM
Quote
testcase
MY mistake. I was trying to quote TWO prior posts and botched it. I believe the N-OS extasy! quopte I was attempting was "There is not a single soul on the planet that I would trust with the task of rewriting our Constitution."

I too think that sentiment is spot on.

I appologize for any confusion I may have caused. banghead smiley

No apology necessary. I have been known to seriously F*U*B*A*R quoting on occasion - not that hard to do.

Gotta give credit where credit's due, though: You scaled new heights with this one. smiley-laughing001



It is what it is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2022 07:04PM by N-OS X-tasy!.
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