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Trump Treason hearing: 'Jan. 6 committee will show evidence of Trump's involvement in fake elector plot'
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: June 19, 2022 09:46PM
Day 4 of the Jan. 6 hearing will begin at 1 p.m. Eastern time Tuesday, and resume for day 5 at 1 p.m. Thursday, June 23

Jan. 6 committee will show evidence of Trump's involvement in fake elector plot
[www.nbcnews.com]

The House committee investigating the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol will present evidence in a public hearing this week about then-President Donald Trump’s involvement in a failed scheme to push slates of bogus electors to overturn the 2020 election results, Rep. Adam Schiff, a member of the panel, said Sunday.

“We’ll show evidence of the president’s involvement in this scheme,” Schiff, D-Calif., said on CNN’s “State of the Union.” “We’ll also again show evidence about what his own lawyers came to think about this scheme. And we’ll show courageous state officials who stood up and said they wouldn’t go along with this plan to either call legislators back into session or decertify the results for Joe Biden.”

The system held, he said, because numerous state and local election officials, Republicans and Democrats alike, “upheld their oath to the Constitution.”

After the election, certificates purporting to be from Trump electors were sent to the National Archives in Washington, D.C., by Republicans in seven battleground states that Joe Biden won — Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, New Mexico, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. The efforts, which were ultimately unsuccessful, created two sets of electors: an official group selected by the states and the fake ones.
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Re: Trump Treason hearing: 'Jan. 6 committee will show evidence of Trump's involvement in fake elector plot'
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: June 20, 2022 09:17AM
I saw an ABC poll that had 58% of respondents saying Trump should be charged with a crime related to the 2020 election, based on findings of the Jan. 6 Committee.
So they appear to be having an impact on public opinion.
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Re: Trump Treason hearing: 'Jan. 6 committee will show evidence of Trump's involvement in fake elector plot'
Posted by: prymsnap
Date: June 20, 2022 10:04AM
I have such mixed emotions about all this. Doing nothing (not holding hearings, not determining if prosecution should follow) is wrong on so many levels. But moving forward has spectacular pitfalls. Jack Goldsmith's NYT opinion article today in NYT lays it out in a manner that chills me to the bone. (Sorry for not adding the link: I tried. And failed. Would love to figure out what I'm doing wrong in my efforts to add a functioning link. I'm just too freaked out right now to think more clearly.)
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Re: Trump Treason hearing: 'Jan. 6 committee will show evidence of Trump's involvement in fake elector plot'
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: June 20, 2022 10:29AM
Never lose sight that even if convicted and jailed, Trump can still be elected president. Neither event disqualifies him.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias
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Re: Trump Treason hearing: 'Jan. 6 committee will show evidence of Trump's involvement in fake elector plot'
Posted by: Ted King
Date: June 20, 2022 10:49AM
Quote
prymsnap
I have such mixed emotions about all this. Doing nothing (not holding hearings, not determining if prosecution should follow) is wrong on so many levels. But moving forward has spectacular pitfalls. Jack Goldsmith's NYT opinion article today in NYT lays it out in a manner that chills me to the bone. (Sorry for not adding the link: I tried. And failed. Would love to figure out what I'm doing wrong in my efforts to add a functioning link. I'm just too freaked out right now to think more clearly.)

Is this the article?:

[www.nytimes.com]

I just copied the URL and pasted it into the text field here. Were you trying to use the "Insert URL" widget? If so, if you just want to post a straight URL you don't have to use that, just copy and paste it into the text field.



e pluribus unum
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Re: Trump Treason hearing: 'Jan. 6 committee will show evidence of Trump's involvement in fake elector plot'
Posted by: prymsnap
Date: June 20, 2022 10:55AM
Quote
Ted King
Quote
prymsnap
I have such mixed emotions about all this. Doing nothing (not holding hearings, not determining if prosecution should follow) is wrong on so many levels. But moving forward has spectacular pitfalls. Jack Goldsmith's NYT opinion article today in NYT lays it out in a manner that chills me to the bone. (Sorry for not adding the link: I tried. And failed. Would love to figure out what I'm doing wrong in my efforts to add a functioning link. I'm just too freaked out right now to think more clearly.)

Is this the article?:

[www.nytimes.com]

I just copied the URL and pasted it into the text field here. Were you trying to use the "Insert URL" widget? If so, if you just want to post a straight URL you don't have to use that, just copy and paste it into the text field.

Yes, that's the article. And yes: I was trying to use the widget. Very kind of you to get me straightened out without making me feel clumsier than I already do ;)
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Re: Trump Treason hearing: 'Jan. 6 committee will show evidence of Trump's involvement in fake elector plot'
Posted by: vision63
Date: June 20, 2022 11:03AM
It's a good story. Unfortunately for Trump, Fed charges are just one of his problems.
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Re: Trump Treason hearing: 'Jan. 6 committee will show evidence of Trump's involvement in fake elector plot'
Posted by: graylocks
Date: June 20, 2022 11:28AM
The Goldsmith essay leaves we thinking this country is just totally screwed. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. we will never be okay as a country again. sorry to be leaving future generations what feels like an unfixable mess.

on a related note, Goldsmith writes Many have noted that Mr. Trump can plausibly defend these charges by arguing that he lacked criminal intent because he truly believed that massive voter fraud had taken place.

When I was growing up I always heard that ignorance of the law is no excuse. Is that not actually true anymore? Was it ever?



"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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Re: Trump Treason hearing: 'Jan. 6 committee will show evidence of Trump's involvement in fake elector plot'
Posted by: RgrF
Date: June 20, 2022 11:33AM
For those fearful of consequences of prosecuting an attempted coup it should be noted: there is no such thing as prosecuting a successful coup.
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Re: Trump Treason hearing: 'Jan. 6 committee will show evidence of Trump's involvement in fake elector plot'
Posted by: prymsnap
Date: June 20, 2022 11:34AM
Yes to all of that. The Goldsmith essay also underscores the harsh, inescapable realities of the calendar. No real action stemming from the current hearings can/will take place before Trump's party has regained full power. And then what?
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Re: Trump Treason hearing: 'Jan. 6 committee will show evidence of Trump's involvement in fake elector plot'
Posted by: Ted King
Date: June 20, 2022 11:39AM
Quote
graylocks
The Goldsmith essay leaves we thinking this country is just totally screwed. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. we will never be okay as a country again. sorry to be leaving future generations what feels like an unfixable mess.

on a related note, Goldsmith writes Many have noted that Mr. Trump can plausibly defend these charges by arguing that he lacked criminal intent because he truly believed that massive voter fraud had taken place.

When I was growing up I always heard that ignorance of the law is no excuse. Is that not actually true anymore? Was it ever?

There are a fair number of laws where the prosecutor has to prove intent to get a jury to convict. I suspect that relevant laws here are like that. It is ridiculous that Trump can simply get away with saying he didn't have the intent to break the law because he irrationally believed falsehoods. (Though I really doubt that he actually believed he was cheated out of the presidency - saying so has been his way of not having to publicly admit he lost (he doesn't like losers) and could grift a LOT of money off of it and maybe keep him out of jail).



e pluribus unum
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Re: Trump Treason hearing: 'Jan. 6 committee will show evidence of Trump's involvement in fake elector plot'
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: June 20, 2022 01:03PM
Quote
prymsnap
I have such mixed emotions about all this. Doing nothing (not holding hearings, not determining if prosecution should follow) is wrong on so many levels. But moving forward has spectacular pitfalls. Jack Goldsmith's NYT opinion article today in NYT lays it out in a manner that chills me to the bone. (Sorry for not adding the link: I tried. And failed. Would love to figure out what I'm doing wrong in my efforts to add a functioning link. I'm just too freaked out right now to think more clearly.)

Here's your link:

[www.nytimes.com]



It is what it is.
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Re: Trump Treason hearing: 'Jan. 6 committee will show evidence of Trump's involvement in fake elector plot'
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: June 20, 2022 04:22PM
Were it possible that 45* claiming he truly believed fraud had been committed was a viable defense, I suspect it would come down to defense counsel trying to convince the jury that was the case, vs the prosecution proving (actually, convincing the jury is ok to believe) that 45* should have known based on the testimony of those around him that they tried to tell him it wasn't true.

:whew:

'Ignorance of the law is no excuse' is still a thing for many if not most laws.

Just a WAG, but for 45* to successfully pull that off, it would have to be an NGI verdict.

I'd like to think if it actually happened, that would disqualify him from running for president.






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all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

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by believing all possible evil of evil men.

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Re: Trump Treason hearing: 'Jan. 6 committee will show evidence of Trump's involvement in fake elector plot'
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: June 20, 2022 07:02PM
Quote
RAMd®d
I'd like to think if it actually happened, that would disqualify him from running for president.

Still would not disqualify him. As long as he meets the constitutional requirements (at least 35 years of age, be a natural born citizen, and must have lived in the United States for at least 14 years.) and the Senate has not voted to disqualify him after voting to uphold impeachment, He can run.

Charles Manson was qualified to be elected President.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias
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Re: Trump Treason hearing: 'Jan. 6 committee will show evidence of Trump's involvement in fake elector plot'
Posted by: bfd
Date: June 20, 2022 07:45PM
Garland will be damned either way, so he might as well at least do something about the crooked Dumbf rather than wringing his hands and simply looking the other way.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2022 07:46PM by bfd.
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Re: Trump Treason hearing: 'Jan. 6 committee will show evidence of Trump's involvement in fake elector plot'
Posted by: deckeda
Date: June 20, 2022 09:51PM
His advisors said there was no fraud. His lawyers also said as much. A handful did not admit it, or admitted it so late they won’t escape this.

When everyone around you is saying something isn’t legal, at some point “but I thought it was OK” isn’t gonna work. Trump still needs to show why he “thought” there was fraud. He can’t, and we already have existing evidence that points to him knowing the only fraud being committed was by him.
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Re: Trump Treason hearing: 'Jan. 6 committee will show evidence of Trump's involvement in fake elector plot'
Posted by: pdq
Date: June 21, 2022 07:59AM
Quote
Ombligo
Quote
RAMd®d
I'd like to think if it actually happened, that would disqualify him from running for president.

Still would not disqualify him. As long as he meets the constitutional requirements (at least 35 years of age, be a natural born citizen, and must have lived in the United States for at least 14 years.) and the Senate has not voted to disqualify him after voting to uphold impeachment, He can run.

Charles Manson was qualified to be elected President.

Perhaps, but there’s the 14th amendment, pt 3:

Quote

No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

…and whether this could disqualify Trump, they say

Quote

Theoretically, yes…But since this mechanism has never been used against a president, there are still questions to resolve. The disqualification clause applies to current and former federal officials, state officials, and military officials. However, legal scholars are split on whether the disqualification clause applies to the presidency. It's likely the 14th Amendment will continue to come up in conversations approaching the 2024 presidential election.

Finally, an interesting kicker in all this:

Quote

Most importantly, under the 14th Amendment, disqualification requires only a simple majority vote, not the two-thirds vote needed to convict during an impeachment trial.

That seems to be a simple majority of Congress (ie both House and Senate) by my reading (which definitely could be wrong). Even if Dems lose the majority, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were enough Repubs that would join to put this all behind them permanently.
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Re: Trump Treason hearing: 'Jan. 6 committee will show evidence of Trump's involvement in fake elector plot'
Posted by: AllGold
Date: June 21, 2022 03:48PM
Quote
pdq
Even if Dems lose the majority, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were enough Repubs that would join to put this all behind them permanently.

Republicans already made a spectacular mistake by not already doing this along with an impeachment conviction. They could have washed their hands of Trump and had their party back but they made a political calculation--incredibly stupid as it was--that they wanted to keep him.
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Re: Trump Treason hearing: 'Jan. 6 committee will show evidence of Trump's involvement in fake elector plot'
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: June 21, 2022 04:17PM
Quote
AllGold
Republicans already made a spectacular mistake by not already doing this along with an impeachment conviction. They could have washed their hands of Trump and had their party back but they made a political calculation--incredibly stupid as it was--that they wanted to keep him.

They chose keeping their jobs over doing their jobs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2022 10:47PM by DeusxMac.
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Re: Trump Treason hearing: 'Jan. 6 committee will show evidence of Trump's involvement in fake elector plot'
Posted by: deckeda
Date: June 21, 2022 08:35PM
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
AllGold
Republicans already made a spectacular mistake by not already doing this along with an impeachment conviction. They could have washed their hands of Trump and had their party back but they made a political calculation--incredibly stupid as it was--that they wanted to keep him.

They chose keeping jobs over doing their jobs.

Ah hell they made that choice in ‘16 when they looked the other way and allowed him to steamroll them and takeover the Party.
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Re: Trump Treason hearing: 'Jan. 6 committee will show evidence of Trump's involvement in fake elector plot'
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: June 22, 2022 11:02AM
Watched yesterday's hearing late last night on cspan. Very compelling. Chairman Thompson continues to impress with his leadership.

Was impressed by AZ House Speaker's testimony, Randy Bowers I believe is his name. Put loyalty to country and state over politics. Clearly identified the illegal behavior of Team Trump. Recounted threats to his staff and his own family.

However, and here is where our American problem lies, this morning the same man said he would vote for Trump in 2024.

WTF.
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Re: Trump Treason hearing: 'Jan. 6 committee will show evidence of Trump's involvement in fake elector plot'
Posted by: Ted King
Date: June 22, 2022 11:27AM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Watched yesterday's hearing late last night on cspan. Very compelling. Chairman Thompson continues to impress with his leadership.

Was impressed by AZ House Speaker's testimony, Randy Bowers I believe is his name. Put loyalty to country and state over politics. Clearly identified the illegal behavior of Team Trump. Recounted threats to his staff and his own family.

However, and here is where our American problem lies, this morning the same man said he would vote for Trump in 2024.

WTF.

He probably thinks Trump "learned his lesson" (as Susan Collins so ridiculously put it after voting against conviction in Trump's first impeachment trial).



e pluribus unum
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