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This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: Rolando
Date: July 16, 2022 01:33PM
David Frum on Twitter



Actual exchange:
[youtu.be]



San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater
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Re: This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 16, 2022 02:16PM
I'm pretty sure we already knew that hateful bigots like Josh Hawley support Trump.

That professor is my personal hero.

I don't give a fig who Republican David Frum votes for.
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Re: This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: pdq
Date: July 16, 2022 02:28PM
The youtube link doesn’t seem to include that exchange as written in the tweet.

What it shows is a Senator badgering a college professor about terminology, to try to score political points.

BTW, I didn’t realize that professor was running against Trump for some elected office.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2022 06:05PM by pdq.
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Re: This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: Ammo
Date: July 16, 2022 02:35PM
Whether you like him or not, Hawley is going to get a lot of milage out of that clip.



Where is there dignity unless there is also honesty? - Cicero

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about. —Wendy Mass
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Re: This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: hal
Date: July 16, 2022 02:42PM
While I find it ridiculous to say that 'this' is why people vote for trump, I will say that to me, this is two extremists so far apart that they couldn't even find a common language.
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Re: This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 16, 2022 02:47PM
Quote
Ammo
Whether you like him or not, Hawley is going to get a lot of milage out of that clip.

So what? If he wants to broadcast his bigotry, let him.
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Re: This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 16, 2022 02:52PM
Quote
hal
While I find it ridiculous to say that 'this' is why people vote for trump, I will say that to me, this is two extremists so far apart that they couldn't even find a common language.

How exactly is she an extremist? Please explain.

There are people who transition to male or who don't identify as female who can give birth. She is acknowledging their existence. Their humanity. This inclusive language harms nobody.

Meanwhile Josh Hawley wants rape victims and children to be forced to give birth.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2022 02:53PM by Lemon Drop.
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Re: This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: kj
Date: July 16, 2022 04:37PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
hal
While I find it ridiculous to say that 'this' is why people vote for trump, I will say that to me, this is two extremists so far apart that they couldn't even find a common language.

How exactly is she an extremist? Please explain.

There are people who transition to male or who don't identify as female who can give birth. She is acknowledging their existence. Their humanity. This inclusive language harms nobody.

Meanwhile Josh Hawley wants rape victims and children to be forced to give birth.

I think by far most people are fine with all that, but they don't want to hear about it every 10 minutes in every commercial, movie, cartoon, book, etc. etc. I have friends that quote scripture every 10 minutes, and that gets old pretty quick too. So I wouldn't say extremist, but there is definitely a large difference in the importance of certain issues to her vs your average person.

edit: Actually, making everyone use a word other than woman is extremist. Almost no one takes that seriously, and it doesn't make them awful people. The whole enterprise of making people use new words for everything that doesn't match an exact personal philosophy is ridiculous. It's not going to work. Not bad to stimulate some thought on such things, but its the worst kind of religion, in my opinion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2022 04:55PM by kj.
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Re: This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: hal
Date: July 16, 2022 05:27PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
hal
While I find it ridiculous to say that 'this' is why people vote for trump, I will say that to me, this is two extremists so far apart that they couldn't even find a common language.

How exactly is she an extremist? Please explain.

I can't find anyone standing to the left of her...
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Re: This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 16, 2022 05:41PM
Kj, I am fairly certain that there is nobody alive who cares if you say "pregnant person " or "pregnant woman." You have no real power over anyone.
You are also, I believe, a white male straight Christian, born in the US, so no part of your identity has ever been up for discussion really, has it? So of course it is easy for you to dismiss real harm to a very small group of which you are not a part.

Josh Hawley on the other hand has the power to harm people. The House Republicans have prepared anti trans legislation and it would pass if they got back in power.

It's become commonplace for GOP politicians to try and distract from the real, current harm they are doing with their anti choice laws by engaging in debates over language relating to a small, vulnerable group of people
What cowardice.
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Re: This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 16, 2022 05:45PM
Quote
hal
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
hal
While I find it ridiculous to say that 'this' is why people vote for trump, I will say that to me, this is two extremists so far apart that they couldn't even find a common language.

How exactly is she an extremist? Please explain.

I can't find anyone standing to the left of her...

Wow.

I sure stand with her.
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Re: This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: kj
Date: July 16, 2022 07:14PM
Good for you. Not everyone walks your path in exactly the same way you do, and that's ok.
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Re: This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: July 17, 2022 09:57AM
Quote
kj
I think by far most people are fine with all that, but they don't want to hear about it every 10 minutes in every commercial, movie, cartoon, book, etc. etc.

I'm sick of hearing about straight, white, heterosexuals every second 24/7/365.
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Re: This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: pdq
Date: July 17, 2022 05:19PM
Quote
Lux Interior
Quote
kj
I think by far most people are fine with all that, but they don't want to hear about it every 10 minutes in every commercial, movie, cartoon, book, etc. etc.

I'm sick of hearing about straight, white, heterosexuals every second 24/7/365.

^ this.

Why the F do you care if other people choose to live their lives - their private lives - differently than you?
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Re: This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: numbered
Date: July 17, 2022 05:41PM
Quote
Lemon
There are people who transition to male or who don't identify as female who can give birth. She is acknowledging their existence. Their humanity. This inclusive language harms nobody.

We have run across this debate before. We are steeped in it now. You know, the perfect is the enemy of the good.

Each of us has to decide our priority at any given time: are we pushing the envelope to be inclusive of edge cases to try to broaden minds....or do we wanna win an election?

To more than 75% of Americans, Lemon's formulation is, well, beyond the pale. And they start to worry what else is gonna happen. It does not harm anybody. But is does scare them.

I just had this same discussion this morning with a couple of women I was having coffee with. Except it was about abortion. These were all strong Democratic voters, probably not having voted for a republican in memory...and they find the extreme case of the abortion activists unsettling. Their perception is that 'safe, legal, and rare' is a winning argument. Swinging for the fences is not.

And coming back to the point: we should be focusing on the abortion situation as a way to leverage a new policy. But we do have many, many 'woke' folks on our side who prioritize focusing on identity edge cases. So Hawley, a truly loathsome creature, won the news cycle, but our side could feel good about the .001% of pregnant trans women! And maybe eight Americans had their minds opened a bit.

If this were twitter that last sentence would activate a mob, and it would look like a full on bot attack. I would have to go into hiding.

Sigh.
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Re: This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: Speedy
Date: July 17, 2022 05:54PM
Quote
numbered
I would have to go into hiding.

Yep, sort of like those seeking or providing abortions.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: pdq
Date: July 17, 2022 06:01PM
Quote
numbered
Quote
Lemon
There are people who transition to male or who don't identify as female who can give birth. She is acknowledging their existence. Their humanity. This inclusive language harms nobody.

…they find the extreme case of the abortion activists unsettling. Their perception is that 'safe, legal, and rare' is a winning argument. Swinging for the fences is not.

I just cringe every time I read something like this.

The “abortion activists” would have been just fine with Roe, which was a nation-wide compromise (yes, compromise - after fetal viability, states could regulate - before, they couldn’t) and one that worked for 50 years. They knew damn well that if they let Roe fall, or be nibbled away, that the American Taliban extremists would only be emboldened for more, including contraception, private sex lives, and beyond. And they wouldn’t care if it split the country into a crazy patchwork of markedly different state laws that will lead to nothing but disaster.

People who think that trying to preserve a 50 year stare decisis, supported by a majority of Americans, is somehow “extreme” have been drinking bad kool aid.
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Re: This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: July 17, 2022 06:12PM
Quote
pdq
Quote
Lux Interior
Quote
kj
I think by far most people are fine with all that, but they don't want to hear about it every 10 minutes in every commercial, movie, cartoon, book, etc. etc.

I'm sick of hearing about straight, white, heterosexuals every second 24/7/365.

^ this.

Why the F do you care if other people choose to live their lives - their private lives - differently than you?

I think it’s that “private” part (or lack there of) that creates issues.
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Re: This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: Rolando
Date: July 17, 2022 06:46PM
Thank you. This is the point I am ham-fistedly trying to make.

Quote
numbered
Quote
Lemon
There are people who transition to male or who don't identify as female who can give birth. She is acknowledging their existence. Their humanity. This inclusive language harms nobody.

We have run across this debate before. We are steeped in it now. You know, the perfect is the enemy of the good.

Each of us has to decide our priority at any given time: are we pushing the envelope to be inclusive of edge cases to try to broaden minds....or do we wanna win an election?

To more than 75% of Americans, Lemon's formulation is, well, beyond the pale. And they start to worry what else is gonna happen. It does not harm anybody. But is does scare them.

I just had this same discussion this morning with a couple of women I was having coffee with. Except it was about abortion. These were all strong Democratic voters, probably not having voted for a republican in memory...and they find the extreme case of the abortion activists unsettling. Their perception is that 'safe, legal, and rare' is a winning argument. Swinging for the fences is not.

And coming back to the point: we should be focusing on the abortion situation as a way to leverage a new policy. But we do have many, many 'woke' folks on our side who prioritize focusing on identity edge cases. So Hawley, a truly loathsome creature, won the news cycle, but our side could feel good about the .001% of pregnant trans women! And maybe eight Americans had their minds opened a bit.

If this were twitter that last sentence would activate a mob, and it would look like a full on bot attack. I would have to go into hiding.

Sigh.



San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater
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Re: This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: numbered
Date: July 17, 2022 08:38PM
Quote
pdq
The “abortion activists” would have been just fine with Roe,

I don't think this is what we have seen. The current activist position is that it is nobody's business but the woman's. This is beyond the Roe/Casey compromises. And they feel the 'safe, legal, and rare' formulation implies something wrong.

I agree with their position.

But the crazies have convinced America that women are gleefully seeking abortion at 36 weeks.

The activists prevented a vote on a Roe-like bill which some moderates argued might get Murkowski and Collins. They insisted on a broader bill. Again, the perfect (that does not pass) being the enemy of the good. They argued that we should force a vote on a woman's right. And show the republican lack of support.

Instead, the republicans argued the Dem bill was extreme so they could not vote for it. I think this is a lot like letting Hawley use the Cal professor's statement.

The problem is that a good chunk of Americans (including my coffee partner Democratic women friends this morning) do feel 'uncomfortable' in some way they find hard to describe. Even though they know the crazies are lying.
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Re: This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: July 17, 2022 09:01PM
Each of us has to decide our priority at any given time: are we pushing the envelope to be inclusive of edge cases to try to broaden minds....or do we wanna win an election?


I'm convinced that extremists do not care about winning elections, on either side. Their primary motivation is to proselytize, one side motivated by a "higher calling," the other by always being one step ahead of their peers in the culture debates.

Both holier than thou.
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Re: This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: AllGold
Date: July 17, 2022 09:11PM
Quote
numbered
I just had this same discussion this morning with a couple of women I was having coffee with. Except it was about abortion. These were all strong Democratic voters, probably not having voted for a republican in memory...and they find the extreme case of the abortion activists unsettling. Their perception is that 'safe, legal, and rare' is a winning argument. Swinging for the fences is not.

I'm not following. Apparently, I have completely missed any mention of abortion activists who are not fine with 'safe, legal and rare'.

Sure, there are always a few nutjobs who are way out there, but I haven't heard about them in this instance. Could this be a case of right-wingers blowing the nutjobs way out of proportion?
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Re: This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: pdq
Date: July 18, 2022 12:38AM
Quote
numbered
Quote
pdq
The “abortion activists” would have been just fine with Roe,


I don't think this is what we have seen. The current activist position is that it is nobody's business but the woman's. This is beyond the Roe/Casey compromises.

Not at all. You haven’t read the bill, have you,(as opposed to the Fox-News-ified caricatures of it)? It eliminates:

Quote

(8) A prohibition on abortion at any point or points in time prior to fetal viability, including a prohibition or restriction on a particular abortion procedure.

(9) A prohibition on abortion after fetal viability when, in the good-faith medical judgment of the treating health care provider, continuation of the pregnancy would pose a risk to the pregnant patient’s life or health.

…which is Roe, codified.

Quote

And they feel the 'safe, legal, and rare' formulation implies something wrong.

What implies something wrong? “Safe, legal, and rare” implies something wrong? What?

The total number of abortions decreased nearly every year under Roe (despite significantly increasing population) and the “abortion ratio” (percentage of pregnancies ending in abortion) was lower in 2017 than in the year when Roe came down.

Quote

But the crazies have convinced America that women are gleefully seeking abortion at 36 weeks.

Which is indeed crazy. No one “gleefully” seeks abortion at or beyond 36 weeks. You know that; I know that; anyone paying the least bit of attention knows that. It’s more expensive, is more dangerous for the woman, and is heavily regulated in some states. It amounts to far, far less than 1% of all abortions, and is usually done in the context of severe fetal anomalies, often/usually incompatible with long-term survival of the child, and significant morbidity to the grieving mother (how do you deliver a fetus with massive hydrocephaly who has no chance at normal brain development and physically won’t fit through the birth canal?)

Quote

The activists prevented a vote on a Roe-like bill which some moderates argued might get Murkowski and Collins.

Oh please. Read the f’in bill. It is more than Roe-like, it is Roe, for all intents and purposes, from the day that decision came down. If this wishful thinking about Murkowski and Collins were true in this best-of-all-possible-worlds, this would still leave them only 8 votes short of an inevitable Republican filibuster. You can’t put abortion into reconciliation, having (by the funding limitations of the Hatch amendment) no effect on the federal budget. A single filibuster-carve-out (for this purpose or others) was publicly opposed by Manchin, if not Sinema, either of which would have sunk that.

Quote

Again, the perfect (that does not pass) being the enemy of the good

…that also would not pass. Not much difference in outcome there, and people are forever dinging the Dems for not standing up and fighting for what they believe in, like women’s rights.

Quote

Instead, the republicans argued the Dem bill was extreme so they could not vote for it.

A silly, transparently fictitious Faux-News argument - it is Roe, codified - and everyone knew they wouldn’t have voted for anything else either.

Quote

The problem is that a good chunk of Americans (including my coffee partner Democratic women friends this morning) do feel 'uncomfortable' in some way they find hard to describe.

Well, they need to figure out their “discomfort” then, decide what practical bill they would support, and let their Senators know. Because the truth of the matter is that currently, in the eyes of the SCOTUS, when it comes to the rights of women versus the rights of an embryo, the woman has no federal equal protection rights. Zero. Period.

Quote

Even though they know the crazies are lying.

And they are. They are. And will see more and more the extent of that, and the real-life damaging effects of it, as time goes by.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2022 12:49AM by pdq.
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Re: This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: Mr645
Date: July 18, 2022 05:33AM
Leave healthcare up to healthcare professionals. Politicians just mess everything up
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Re: This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: kj
Date: July 18, 2022 10:41AM
Quote
pdq
Quote
Lux Interior
Quote
kj
I think by far most people are fine with all that, but they don't want to hear about it every 10 minutes in every commercial, movie, cartoon, book, etc. etc.

I'm sick of hearing about straight, white, heterosexuals every second 24/7/365.

^ this.

Why the F do you care if other people choose to live their lives - their private lives - differently than you?

I don't care at all. And none of this is private, or I wouldn't even know about it. I have no wish that it be private, fwiw. First, I think it's the same for any cause. People get sick of having it relentlessly pushed on them. I have a lot of experience in career fields where terminology is changed continuously due to "stigma", and I don't think it's that helpful. It's just an easy thing to do that makes people feel like they're doing something courageous. The stuff that is actually helpful is hard, so very few ever do it.
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Re: This is why People Vote for Trump
Posted by: pdq
Date: July 19, 2022 08:22AM
Yes, terminology has changed. Some folks are still upset they can’t use a certain term for African Americans without being ostracized. They probably feel like that’s being pushed in their face too.

I understand sometimes change is difficult.
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