....the Chinese are not happy...


Pelosi makes historic visit to Taiwan, escalating tensions with China

The unannounced trip comes amid growing concern in Washington over the self-ruling democracy that Beijing claims as its territory.

.....House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., who is leading an official congressional delegation to Asia this week, made an unannounced visit to Taiwan on Tuesday, a move that escalated tensions between Beijing and Washington.

Pelosi is the highest-ranking U.S. official to visit Taiwan since then-House Speaker Newt Gingrich traveled there in 1997. She visited the island in 1999 but she was not in leadership then. Lawmakers from both sides of the aisle (and Gingrich) had been urging Pelosi to make the trip despite warnings from China of "serious consequences."

China immediately condemned Pelosi’s visit Tuesday, vowing that “those who play with fire will perish by it,” and announced new military exercises surrounding Taiwan later this week including live-fire drills. The visit represents a “serious violation” that “seriously infringes upon China’s sovereignty and territorial integrity,” the Chinese Foreign Ministry said in a statement Tuesday after her arrival in Taipei.

“These moves, like playing with fire, are extremely dangerous. Those who play with fire will perish by it,” it said. The Global Times, a state-controlled newspaper, reported that the Chinese military would “conduct important military exercises and training activities including live-fire drills in six regions surrounding the Taiwan island from Thursday to Sunday.”

Beijing also said it had lodged a “strong protest” with the U.S.

The official blue-and-white government plane, emblazoned with "United States of America," touched down about 10:45 p.m. local time in the capital city of Taipei. Pelosi and members of her delegation emerged from the plane, walked down its stairs to the tarmac, where they were greeted by Taiwan officials.

“Our Congressional delegation’s visit to Taiwan honors America’s unwavering commitment to supporting Taiwan’s vibrant Democracy," Pelosi and members of her delegation said in a joint statement after touching down.

"Our discussions with Taiwan leadership will focus on reaffirming our support for our partner and on promoting our shared interests, including advancing a free and open Indo-Pacific region," the statement continued. "America’s solidarity with the 23 million people of Taiwan is more important today than ever, as the world faces a choice between autocracy and democracy."

For days, Pelosi’s office had declined to confirm any plans for international travel, citing security protocols. The White House also had not confirmed the trip.

Pelosi and the other lawmakers also made it clear that their visit was one of many trips by congressional delegations to Taiwan and "in no way contradicts" long-standing U.S. policy, which is guided by the Taiwan Relations Act of 1979, U.S.-China Joint Communiques and the Six Assurances.

"The United States continues to oppose unilateral efforts to change the status quo," the lawmakers said.

The five House Democratic lawmakers traveling with Pelosi are Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman Gregory Meeks, D-N.Y.; Veterans Affairs Committee Chairman Mark Takano, D-Calif., who led his own delegation to Taiwan last year; Rep. Suzan DelBene, D-Wash., a leading voice on trade issues; Rep. Raja Krishnamoorthi, D-Ill., a member of the Intelligence Committee; and Rep. Andy Kim, D-N.J., a former national security official in the Obama administration.

The visit comes amid growing concern in Washington as U.S.-China relations strain over the future of the self-ruling democracy that Beijing claims as its territory.

The trip came up during a call between President Joe Biden and Chinese President Xi Jinping last week. Biden had earlier last month said that U.S. military officials thought it was “not a good idea” for Pelosi to visit Taiwan but the White House backed off those warnings as her trip approached.

On Monday, National Security Council spokesman John Kirby said Pelosi's potential visit was "consistent with long-standing U.S. policy" and urged China not to turn into "some sort of crisis or use it as a pretext to increase aggressive military activity in or around the Taiwan Strait."

During an interview with ABC’s “Good Morning America” on Tuesday, national security adviser Jake Sullivan said that “if China chooses to try to turn a potential visit by the speaker into a crisis or tries to use it as a pretext to take aggressive action around Taiwan, that’s on them.”

“The United States is not looking for escalation but, of course, we will reserve the right to ensure that we are defending our interests and we will stay vigilant to whatever China chooses to do in the coming hours and days,” he added.


uh......oh..............................?!

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I reject your reality and substitute my own!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2022 10:30AM by NewtonMP2100.

Just checking on her investments.

CHina has responded by claiming several islands in the area that are claimed by multiple nations.

Pelosi is fricken brilliant...

Before she left, she wrote this op/ed: Why I’m leading a congressional delegation to Taiwan (wapo)

and also Newt says she is doing the right thing and she somehow got 25 GOP senators led by McConnell to post a fully supportive post. [www.axios.com]

this lady is a master pol



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2022 12:26PM by hal.

The Repubs should have gone along.

NYT's Thomas Friedman is calling her 'Utterly Reckless'

[www.nytimes.com]

Members of Congress go to Taiwan all the time. Her visit represents no change in US policy.

China needs to settle down. The Speaker will not be intimidated.

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hal
NYT's Thomas Friedman is calling her 'Utterly Reckless'

[www.nytimes.com]

I read that. Also the piece in sfgate. These guys have spent the last umpteen years speculating and pontificating about the hidden strategies of Putin, Trump, even Biden. Like the win a prize if they guess right.

But with Pelosi, there are no scenarios, no through-the-looking-glass observations. There's no trying to understand her motives, strategies, game plans or end games.

Pelosi is a mastermind the levels of which they've never seen or experienced before. They've never seen a Speaker control their caucus, even in the minority, with the precision and determination that she elicits. They always have to bring it down to some simple-minded level where they are. Ooh, look at how much money she has. Now they can write their story because they're the Geo-Political experts and not her.

I feel like, if you're gonna write a story about this, write the whole story.

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vision63

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hal
NYT's Thomas Friedman is calling her 'Utterly Reckless'

[www.nytimes.com]

I read that. Also the piece in sfgate. These guys have spent the last umpteen years speculating and pontificating about the hidden strategies of Putin, Trump, even Biden. Like the win a prize if they guess right.

But with Pelosi, there are no scenarios, no through-the-looking-glass observations. There's no trying to understand her motives, strategies, game plans or end games.

Pelosi is a mastermind the levels of which they've never seen or experienced before. They've never seen a Speaker control their caucus, even in the minority, with the precision and determination that she elicits. They always have to bring it down to some simple-minded level where they are. Ooh, look at how much money she has. Now they can write their story because they're the Geo-Political experts and not her.

I feel like, if you're gonna write a story about this, write the whole story.

I admit that I was one of those people that thought maybe it was time to step aside when biden won the election, but I was wrong - very wrong. She is still a powerhouse and has won almost every battle.

China is the one playing with fire. Or fireworks. Probably both.

Yes, they need to calm the eff down.

I'm sure she had Biden's approval, even if it was not his idea. We were due for a little diplomatic jab back after all China's saber rattling since Ukraine.

Dick Durbin said members of Congress routinely make visits to Taiwan and other countries and China doesn't get to dictate where and when we visit.

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China hasn't got the right to tell any American politician what they can or cannot do. If we let them stop Pelosi, we might as well just wear a Kick Me sign or our backs.

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Acer
Just checking on her investments.

THIS sounds about right.

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AllGold
Dick Durbin said members of Congress routinely make visits to Taiwan and other countries and China doesn't get to dictate where and when we visit.

but is Taiwan another country or is it part of China? that's the fundamental issue here.

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gadje
but is Taiwan another country or is it part of China?

Yes.

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Acer

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gadje
but is Taiwan another country or is it part of China?

Yes.

Yes to which part of my question?

Taiwan is clearly not part of China. China wants it to be. That's all there is to it.

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kj
Taiwan is clearly not part of China. China wants it to be. That's all there is to it.

It's not funny but it's funny that WWIII could start over this little island.

....they've already....'absorbed'......Hong Kong......giving back to them was a huge.....mistake...

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_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

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NewtonMP2100
....they've already....'absorbed'......Hong Kong......giving back to them was a huge.....mistake...

Afaik, they had every right to Hong Kong. Taiwan is very different.

It seems China is pretty aggressive as far as collecting new territory, one way or another, so Taiwan may be kind of a line in the sand. Taiwan may also be an important ally financially too, but I don't know to what extent. Our economy seems to benefit quite a bit from Taiwanese companies (e.g. TSMC, etc.). If they were to gain control of those kinds of tech companies, that could be a huge problem.

Actually, after looking it up, I don't think one could overstate the importance of tech like TSMC continuing to be independent. It's like the new oil.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2022 03:32PM by kj.

here's an interesting take on China's response:

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kj

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NewtonMP2100
....they've already....'absorbed'......Hong Kong......giving back to them was a huge.....mistake...

Afaik, they had every right to Hong Kong. Taiwan is very different.

It seems China is pretty aggressive as far as collecting new territory, one way or another, so Taiwan may be kind of a line in the sand. Taiwan may also be an important ally financially too, but I don't know to what extent. Our economy seems to benefit quite a bit from Taiwanese companies (e.g. TSMC, etc.). If they were to gain control of those kinds of tech companies, that could be a huge problem.

Actually, after looking it up, I don't think one could overstate the importance of tech like TSMC continuing to be independent. It's like the new oil.

Well Taiwan was part of China. During the Communist takeover it became the retreat point for the Nationalist gov in exile, so it's as much a part of China as is Hong Kong.

I'm sure that's true. Xi might be correct in thinking it's all strategic. I can't imagine it isn't. Seems to be their style though, max response, whether or not they believe we're being hostile.

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RgrF

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kj

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NewtonMP2100
....they've already....'absorbed'......Hong Kong......giving back to them was a huge.....mistake...

Afaik, they had every right to Hong Kong. Taiwan is very different.

It seems China is pretty aggressive as far as collecting new territory, one way or another, so Taiwan may be kind of a line in the sand. Taiwan may also be an important ally financially too, but I don't know to what extent. Our economy seems to benefit quite a bit from Taiwanese companies (e.g. TSMC, etc.). If they were to gain control of those kinds of tech companies, that could be a huge problem.

Actually, after looking it up, I don't think one could overstate the importance of tech like TSMC continuing to be independent. It's like the new oil.

Well Taiwan was part of China. During the Communist takeover it became the retreat point for the Nationalist gov in exile, so it's as much a part of China as is Hong Kong.

I don't think that's exactly right. The UK returned Hong Kong to China, as had been agreed when they leased it. There's nothing like that going on with Taiwan. The current government in China has never governed Taiwan, in any way. China did govern Taiwan over a hundred years ago, but so did the Dutch before that. So maybe the Dutch could claim them also. But the fact is they have been independent for over a hundred years, and no one has made any agreement to return Taiwan to China.

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kj

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RgrF

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kj

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NewtonMP2100
....they've already....'absorbed'......Hong Kong......giving back to them was a huge.....mistake...

Afaik, they had every right to Hong Kong. Taiwan is very different.

It seems China is pretty aggressive as far as collecting new territory, one way or another, so Taiwan may be kind of a line in the sand. Taiwan may also be an important ally financially too, but I don't know to what extent. Our economy seems to benefit quite a bit from Taiwanese companies (e.g. TSMC, etc.). If they were to gain control of those kinds of tech companies, that could be a huge problem.

Actually, after looking it up, I don't think one could overstate the importance of tech like TSMC continuing to be independent. It's like the new oil.

Well Taiwan was part of China. During the Communist takeover it became the retreat point for the Nationalist gov in exile, so it's as much a part of China as is Hong Kong.

I don't think that's exactly right. The UK returned Hong Kong to China, as had been agreed when they leased it. There's nothing like that going on with Taiwan. The current government in China has never governed Taiwan, in any way. China did govern Taiwan over a hundred years ago, but so did the Dutch before that. So maybe the Dutch could claim them also. But the fact is they have been independent for over a hundred years, and no one has made any agreement to return Taiwan to China.

After losing the First Sino-Japanese War Taiwan was ceded to Japan in 1895. For 50 years it was a territory controlled by Japan, the post WW II occupation was by ROC forces starting in 1945. But Taiwan was not returned to China's control until a treaty was signed in 1952 between Japan and the ROC government.

"They don't understand that Biden didn't dispatch Pelosi, who
is a member of his own party, because that would never happen in China."

That's not a bug, it's a feature.

But perhaps McConnell's grip on Senate Republicans would be more to China's liking.

I personally think it was stupid, irresponsible, achieving absolutely nothing except a photo-op and applause of (a part of) home public, while risking other people's lives and livelihoods, at no risk to herself.
And I say that as someone who is hoping to retire there, and as a husband of a pro-independence Taiwanese wife.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2022 12:41PM by dk62.

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JoeH

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kj

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RgrF

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kj

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NewtonMP2100
....they've already....'absorbed'......Hong Kong......giving back to them was a huge.....mistake...

Afaik, they had every right to Hong Kong. Taiwan is very different.

It seems China is pretty aggressive as far as collecting new territory, one way or another, so Taiwan may be kind of a line in the sand. Taiwan may also be an important ally financially too, but I don't know to what extent. Our economy seems to benefit quite a bit from Taiwanese companies (e.g. TSMC, etc.). If they were to gain control of those kinds of tech companies, that could be a huge problem.

Actually, after looking it up, I don't think one could overstate the importance of tech like TSMC continuing to be independent. It's like the new oil.

Well Taiwan was part of China. During the Communist takeover it became the retreat point for the Nationalist gov in exile, so it's as much a part of China as is Hong Kong.

I don't think that's exactly right. The UK returned Hong Kong to China, as had been agreed when they leased it. There's nothing like that going on with Taiwan. The current government in China has never governed Taiwan, in any way. China did govern Taiwan over a hundred years ago, but so did the Dutch before that. So maybe the Dutch could claim them also. But the fact is they have been independent for over a hundred years, and no one has made any agreement to return Taiwan to China.

After losing the First Sino-Japanese War Taiwan was ceded to Japan in 1895. For 50 years it was a territory controlled by Japan, the post WW II occupation was by ROC forces starting in 1945. But Taiwan was not returned to China's control until a treaty was signed in 1952 between Japan and the ROC government.

Yeah, but the ROC is not the PRC. Bottom line is that their status is no where near as clear as Hong Kong's was.

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dk62
I personally think it was stupid, irresponsible, achieving absolutely nothing except a photo-op and applause of (a part of) home public, while risking other people's lives and livelihoods, at no risk to herself.
And I say that as someone who is hoping to retire there, and as a husband of a pro-independence Taiwanese wife.

I think you would have to be a bit of a democrat fanboi to think what she did was awesome. Seems a bit reckless, at least.

The history of war tells us pretext is just a formality. Any war begun today was already planned months ago.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2022 07:38PM by Acer.

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dk62
I personally think it was stupid, irresponsible, achieving absolutely nothing except a photo-op and applause of (a part of) home public, while risking other people's lives and livelihoods, at no risk to herself.
And I say that as someone who is hoping to retire there, and as a husband of a pro-independence Taiwanese wife.

China doesn't want our smoke. We don't want their smoke either. They're ramped up their military capacity a thousand-fold over the past 20 something years and are feeling frisky. They have more ships and planes than we do now. They've been running their "excersice" flights routinely for years trying to catch us sleeping. Being too afraid is how you lose.

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vision63

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dk62
I personally think it was stupid, irresponsible, achieving absolutely nothing except a photo-op and applause of (a part of) home public, while risking other people's lives and livelihoods, at no risk to herself.
And I say that as someone who is hoping to retire there, and as a husband of a pro-independence Taiwanese wife.

China doesn't want our smoke. We don't want their smoke either. They're ramped up their military capacity a thousand-fold over the past 20 something years and are feeling frisky. They have more ships and planes than we do now. They've been running their "excersice" flights routinely for years trying to catch us sleeping. Being too afraid is how you lose.

I agree the appearance of strength is important, but I think this move looked a little haphazard. I'm not sure it's well thought out, but it is what it is. It's way better than how we handled the Ukraine thing, before the invasion.

Again, let's see what is achieved:
- Excuse to hold most coordinated and dangerous exercise to date, including incursions over the previously respected median line (https://www.politico.com/news/2022/08/05/chinas-military-exercises-are-intel-00050129)
- Galvanizing Chinese public and gathering additional support among Chinese leadership for more aggressive stance towards Taiwan (most of them, like most of Taiwanese, were OK with the status quo).
- Severing several US-Chinese communication channels
- Disrupting flow of passengers and goods for days in that part of the world
- Photo-op for Pelosi, with fanboys admiring her "balls" (what exactly was her bravery here - this is not Tianemen square situation).

What is NOT achieved:
- Increased guarantees that we will start WW3 if China invades Taiwan
- Increased military assistance to Taiwan (which is completely independent from the visit of the Speaker of the House)
- Any deterrence to China (this will increase support for Xi's views rather than diminish it)
- Any indication that we will join the remaining 13 countries that recognize Taiwan as a separate country
- Appearance of strength? With Biden clearly stating he is not behind the visit? More like appearance of strategic ambiguity being replaced by strategic disorganization.

She never should've went in the first place. What was the point of the trip? What did it accomplish? Taiwan already knew the US & other countries are with them. Now look at the results. Taiwan is suffering the consequences & Nancy gets to go home to some kind of heros welcome. She must be up for reelection & needed to prove she's a rock star or something. What a waste.

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Beam Me Up Scotty
She never should've went in the first place. What was the point of the trip? What did it accomplish? Taiwan already knew the US & other countries are with them. Now look at the results. Taiwan is suffering the consequences & Nancy gets to go home to some kind of heros welcome. She must be up for reelection & needed to prove she's a rock star or something. What a waste.

What's the point of you writing this at all? You think she struggles winning her district? Sucking up to a bully like China regarding Taiwan doesn't make Taiwan a safer place.

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dk62
Again, let's see what is achieved:
- Excuse to hold most coordinated and dangerous exercise to date, including incursions over the previously respected median line (https://www.politico.com/news/2022/08/05/chinas-military-exercises-are-intel-00050129)
- Galvanizing Chinese public and gathering additional support among Chinese leadership for more aggressive stance towards Taiwan (most of them, like most of Taiwanese, were OK with the status quo).
- Severing several US-Chinese communication channels
- Disrupting flow of passengers and goods for days in that part of the world
- Photo-op for Pelosi, with fanboys admiring her "balls" (what exactly was her bravery here - this is not Tianemen square situation).

What is NOT achieved:
- Increased guarantees that we will start WW3 if China invades Taiwan
- Increased military assistance to Taiwan (which is completely independent from the visit of the Speaker of the House)
- Any deterrence to China (this will increase support for Xi's views rather than diminish it)
- Any indication that we will join the remaining 13 countries that recognize Taiwan as a separate country
- Appearance of strength? With Biden clearly stating he is not behind the visit? More like appearance of strategic ambiguity being replaced by strategic disorganization.

Sorry, but this all such bull. She merely showed Taiwan that the most powerful woman, 2nd most powerful elected official in America and its citizens has their back. As if any kind of way that China responds is meaningful. They can't lay one finger on them.

So naive...

All bluster and no substance.. How does she have their back? Is she a commander in chief? China cannot touch them? Just compare US response to 1995 Chinese demonstration of force to this one. 1995: US Navy sails through the Strait of Taiwan in its own show of force. 2022: US Navy holds back and observes (rather than risking having a number of ships put on the bottom of the strait). The situation is drastically changed and adding oil to the fire is just stupid. Xi is just looking for greater support in his nationalistic expansionist policies among his party ahead of the conference that would potentially put him as president for life.

40+ years ago we decided to say that Taiwan is part of China, while warning China not to use force to enforce it. Within that framework, we have been subtly changing our stance towards Taiwan several times over those 40 years according to geopolitical realities and one party's representative is not going to change it. And if we stated that Taiwan is part of China, there is obvious tacit acknowledgement that China does have an interest in who is traveling to Taiwan. I have been a staunch Democrat my whole life, but at this point, were I in her district, I would vote against her. Just arrogant and stupid.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2022 07:05PM by dk62.

I have been a staunch Democrat my whole life, but at this point, were I in her district, I would vote against her. Just arrogant and stupid.

I am surprised given your recent comment regarding the situation in Ukraine and the analogy with Kosovo. You clearly criticized the UN peace keeping force in the Balkan War. That made me think you were a Republican.

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dk62
So naive...

All bluster and no substance.. How does she have their back? Is she a commander in chief? China cannot touch them? Just compare US response to 1995 Chinese demonstration of force to this one. 1995: US Navy sails through the Strait of Taiwan in its own show of force. 2022: US Navy holds back and observes (rather than risking having a number of ships put on the bottom of the strait). The situation is drastically changed and adding oil to the fire is just stupid. Xi is just looking for greater support in his nationalistic expansionist policies among his party ahead of the conference that would potentially put him as president for life.

40+ years ago we decided to say that Taiwan is part of China, while warning China not to use force to enforce it. Within that framework, we have been subtly changing our stance towards Taiwan several times over those 40 years according to geopolitical realities and one party's representative is not going to change it. And if we stated that Taiwan is part of China, there is obvious tacit acknowledgement that China does have an interest in who is traveling to Taiwan. I have been a staunch Democrat my whole life, but at this point, were I in her district, I would vote against her. Just arrogant and stupid.

China cannot touch them. All China can do is stunt. That's their only option. But you have Russia working hard to invade Ukraine and while it may get them a bit of land, their butts will be handed to them. NATO is even stronger, which totally blunts them.

Things have changed greatly. You're right about that. China has built a massive military. They have more ships and planes than we do. Not as capable, but numbers-wise it is what it is. It doesn't hurt to remind them that the U.S. does what it pleases.

If you voted against Pelosi in her district, you'd vote for some candidate that lost in a humiliating landslide.

Did not criticize UN peacekeeping force. They did a good job. I criticized hypocrisy. And was just as much against Iraq invasion as I was against bombing of Yugoslavia. My view of foreign policy is not partisan.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2022 07:32AM by dk62.

The Chinese populace likely doesn't even understand what a "Speaker of the House" is.

Neither does the bulk of the American populace.