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Proper attire to witness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: GGD
Date: August 05, 2022 02:38PM
Prison objected to a female reporter's skirt length and open toed shoes, even though she had worn them in the past. They found the alternate wardrobe of hip waders and tennis shoes acceptable.

[www.al.com]

Quote

...
"I have worn this skirt to prior executions without incident, to work, professional events and more and I believe it is more than appropriate. At 5'10" with my heels on, I am a tall and long-legged person," she said on Twitter. Hrynkiw, an award-winning journalist, has attended and witnessed seven executions.

Hrynkiw said she tried to lower her skirt at the hip in an attempt to comply with Betts, but that didn't satisfy the prison official. In order to witness the execution for reporting purposes, she had to borrow a pair of Columbia PFG fisherman's waders from a local television photographer. The fishing gear was deemed appropriate attire.

"I put on the man's pants and attached the suspenders underneath my shirt to stay up," she said.

Following the change of clothes, Hrynkiw was told her open-toed heels also violated policy. She was told to put on closed-toe shoes, and put on tennis shoes she had in her car.

The prison spokesperson said the skirt violated the prison's dress length policy. as well as her open-toed shoes, Hrynkiw said.

"Despite wearing a pair of waders from a man I have never met and casual tennis shoes, I continued to do my job." Hrynkiw said. "This was an uncomfortable situation, and I felt embarrassed to have my body and my clothes questioned in front of a room of people I mostly had never met."
...

For some reason this reminded me of a scene from My Cousin Vinny.

[www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2022 04:55PM by GGD.
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Re: Proper attire to wittness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: samintx
Date: August 05, 2022 04:17PM
That is hilarious. Execution/proper dress. Like opposite ends of the spectrum.
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Re: Proper attire to witness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: August 05, 2022 08:59PM
I don't care who'd getting executed, it should be a solemn occasion, not a fashion gala.

The fact that she's 'worn them before' is irrelevant.

There's no reason the presiding authority can't require and update a dress code, as long as it's not capricious and spur of the moment, arbitrarily enforced.

Waders and tennis shoes are no better, and shouldn't have been allowed.

But selective enforcement and humiliation of witnesses is also wrong.

Was the warden or officiating staff member the same as all her previous visits?

The article makes it seem like the prison doesn't want women observers, but only one of the two present had their attire challenged.

The prison staff need to make requirements absolutely clear before an execution, not at it.






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We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

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Re: Proper attire to witness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: August 06, 2022 11:54AM
So does the victim's family get to throw the switch (assuming it's old sparky) a few times like family dumping a shovelful of dirt into the grave?
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Re: Proper attire to witness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: August 06, 2022 01:34PM
Quote
RAMd®d
I don't care who'd getting executed, it should be a solemn occasion, not a fashion gala.

The fact that she's 'worn them before' is irrelevant.

There's no reason the presiding authority can't require and update a dress code, as long as it's not capricious and spur of the moment, arbitrarily enforced.

Waders and tennis shoes are no better, and shouldn't have been allowed.

But selective enforcement and humiliation of witnesses is also wrong.

Was the warden or officiating staff member the same as all her previous visits?

The article makes it seem like the prison doesn't want women observers, but only one of the two present had their attire challenged.

The prison staff need to make requirements absolutely clear before an execution, not at it.

It was a different warden who decided that the dress code for prisoner visitation should apply to media witnessing executions. Nowhere is that dress code does it apply to anything but prisoner visitations, although I guess in the strictest sense she was visiting a prisoner (for the last time). The part about the open-toe shoes is BS, the dress code does say anything about open-toe shoes.

This was harassment aimed at women by a warden who made a mockery of what should be a solumn procedure.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias
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Re: Proper attire to witness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: hal
Date: August 06, 2022 01:50PM
and here's Sen Burr at the Capitol:

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Re: Proper attire to witness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: gadje
Date: August 06, 2022 07:08PM
I haven’t seen any pictures so I can’t make any judgment. But I fully agree this is not a fashion gala. The dress code should be similar to the dress code when you go in front of a judge. It’s not a casual appearance.
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Re: Proper attire to witness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: GGD
Date: August 06, 2022 08:23PM
Quote
gadje
I haven’t seen any pictures so I can’t make any judgment. But I fully agree this is not a fashion gala. The dress code should be similar to the dress code when you go in front of a judge. It’s not a casual appearance.

From her statements, it sounds like she was wearing her normal business attire, and wasn't intending to make a fashion statement. She was there to do her job, and those were her work clothes.

I have worn this skirt to prior executions without incident, to work, professional events and more and I believe it is more than appropriate.

Do you think hip waders and tennis shoes are more appropriate? That's clearly what I would consider inappropriate attire for the situation.
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Re: Proper attire to witness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: Janit
Date: August 07, 2022 05:45AM
It's important to read the entire article, and then to consider the cultural context of policing women's clothing.

Don't just go with your reflexive reaction before considering the whole situation.

Going in, the reporter had no reason to believe that her clothing was inappropriate. She was wearing her standard contemporary professional attire, and it had been acceptable before. Her clothing was NOT disrespectful.

The dress code that was sprung on her without prior warning was one designed for women visiting prisoners under ordinary circumstances. No doubt that code was designed to control the level of sexual tension inherent in such prisoner visits. The issue of whether dress codes actually achieve that goal, or whether the levels of sexual tension inherent in such visits can or should be controlled is a whole 'nother discussion. No doubt, the prison authorities would argue that controlling sexual tension is important for controlling the prisoners in general. It's all about management of the prisoners.

Extending this reasoning to observers of executions is a reach. Do they really believe that an open-toed sandal is going to provoke a sex-riot at an execution? In this case it is simply about policing women because they are women, and demanding that they do ridiculous things to put them in their place. No doubt it is also about the prison staff's fear of their new warden and a perception that he is likely to be cruel and arbitrary.

This is how abuse of power begins.
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Re: Proper attire to witness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: August 07, 2022 01:02PM
In the end, both parties were foolish and disrespectful.

As others have noted, this was an occasion of the utmost gravity; the enactment of the state sanctioned taking of a human life. The closing note of a story involving the utter waste of human lives. It is deserving of great respect for what it represents. Both sides ended up act like children.

The authorities by creating the situation in the first place. The reporter by taking the bait and actually attending dressed like she was making a Tik Tok video.

She could have made the exact same point —the absurdity of authorities in their demands and the obvious patriarchal implications — by adopting her improvised attire, letting them allow her to be seated, and then recusing herself and submitting her story, without contributing to the mockery.



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As of July 16, 2022, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is now available by simply dialing 988. The previous number, 1-800-273-8255, will remain active.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
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Re: Proper attire to witness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: JoeH
Date: August 07, 2022 01:21PM
Quote
Blankity Blank
The reporter by taking the bait and actually attending dressed like she was making a Tik Tok video.

And you make this conclusion based on what evidence? The article doesn't show the clothing in question at all. And apparently another woman reporter was subjected to the same clothing inspection, but not male reporters.

So do you have an actual basis for concluding she was "dressed like she was making a Tik Tok video"?
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Re: Proper attire to witness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: August 07, 2022 01:33PM
Quote
JoeH
Quote
Blankity Blank
The reporter by taking the bait and actually attending dressed like she was making a Tik Tok video.

And you make this conclusion based on what evidence? The article doesn't show the clothing in question at all. And apparently another woman reporter was subjected to the same clothing inspection, but not male reporters.

So do you have an actual basis for concluding she was "dressed like she was making a Tik Tok video"?

I’m referring to the improvised attire of borrowed “Columbia PFG fisherman's waders” and sneakers from the trunk of her car, not her original clothing.



National Suicide Prevention Lifeline
As of July 16, 2022, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is now available by simply dialing 988. The previous number, 1-800-273-8255, will remain active.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2022 01:35PM by Blankity Blank.
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Re: Proper attire to witness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: JoeH
Date: August 07, 2022 05:16PM
Quote
Blankity Blank
Quote
JoeH
Quote
Blankity Blank
The reporter by taking the bait and actually attending dressed like she was making a Tik Tok video.

And you make this conclusion based on what evidence? The article doesn't show the clothing in question at all. And apparently another woman reporter was subjected to the same clothing inspection, but not male reporters.

So do you have an actual basis for concluding she was "dressed like she was making a Tik Tok video"?

I’m referring to the improvised attire of borrowed “Columbia PFG fisherman's waders” and sneakers from the trunk of her car, not her original clothing.

Waders were borrowed from a local television photographer, not from the trunk of her car. The tennis shoes she had in her car. So you are gong to diss her for doing what it took to do her job of reporting on the execution, it wasn't like she was making a Tok Tok video. Last I knew they don't allow video at executions anyways.
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Re: Proper attire to witness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: $tevie
Date: August 07, 2022 07:34PM
This is all because at some point in history it was decided that men in suits with ties was a professional look, and a sober respectful look. Then when women began to be professionals, all hell broke loose because they weren't wearing men's clothes so a bunch of stupid rules were concocted.

I say it's all baloney. Manners and demeanor are what create an aura of professionalism. Or respect. Or seriousness. If this was Star Trek and they all showed up in their skin tight clothes and short skirts, nobody on the planet would think it was wrong. Clothing requirements are just as make-believe as that.



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Re: Proper attire to witness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: August 07, 2022 08:37PM
Quote
JoeH
Quote
Blankity Blank
Quote
JoeH
Quote
Blankity Blank
The reporter by taking the bait and actually attending dressed like she was making a Tik Tok video.

And you make this conclusion based on what evidence? The article doesn't show the clothing in question at all. And apparently another woman reporter was subjected to the same clothing inspection, but not male reporters.

So do you have an actual basis for concluding she was "dressed like she was making a Tik Tok video"?

I’m referring to the improvised attire of borrowed “Columbia PFG fisherman's waders” and sneakers from the trunk of her car, not her original clothing.

Waders were borrowed from a local television photographer, not from the trunk of her car. The tennis shoes she had in her car. So you are gong to diss her for doing what it took to do her job of reporting on the execution, it wasn't like she was making a Tok Tok video. Last I knew they don't allow video at executions anyways.

Such an odd bone to pick.

I stated the waders were borrowed, and the shoes from her car; the trunk in the item I read. And yes, I am going to criticize her for contributing to the ongoing childishness by sinking to the level of actually attending in that get up.

At that point she actually had a significant story to be attended to in addressing the moronic gatekeeping being imposed upon her as a professional woman attempting to do her job. Carrying the charade to that point however did a disservice to the moment without furthering that story.



National Suicide Prevention Lifeline
As of July 16, 2022, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is now available by simply dialing 988. The previous number, 1-800-273-8255, will remain active.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
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Re: Proper attire to witness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: davester
Date: August 07, 2022 09:50PM
There's nothing solemn about an execution. It's an obscene event whereby the state shows that murder is wrong by murdering the murderer. It's all completely ridiculous and enforcing an arbitrary made-up-on-the-spot dress code for it is a travesty. In the early days of state executions it was pretty much a carnival atmosphere with flimflam men selling souvenirs and a cheering, leering, partying crowd. Not that I approve of that behavior, but the occasion does not deserve any respect. Heck, perhaps it would be best to ask the condemned man if he's rather have his last vision preference be of an attractive lady in a short skirt vs wearing fishing gaiters.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2022 09:52PM by davester.
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Re: Proper attire to witness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: mattkime
Date: August 07, 2022 11:16PM
Quote
davester
Heck, perhaps it would be best to ask the condemned man if he's rather have his last vision preference be of an attractive lady in a short skirt vs wearing fishing gaiters.

I thought the rule might have been spontaneously created to prevent all possibility of the executioner getting a @#$%&.



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Re: Proper attire to witness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: Diana
Date: August 08, 2022 12:20AM
Baloney.

This was purely spite. Let me tell you why.

The reporter was dressed appropriately; all indications the reporter had both prior to the incident, and written beforehand, indicated that the outfit chosen, the footwear, all accoutrements, everything was appropriate for the occasion. Yes, the occasion was indeed solemn and required professionalism. And the reporter treated it as such.

One small problem, however: the reporter was a woman. And, might I remind you, apparently not bad looking and some could possibly have said better looking than average.

In truth, a woman in a professional position has to be dressed as if she is matronly, nearly androgynously, and certainly not like a man. Anything outside of this narrow range is verging on inappropriate to some people. Unfortunately, the warden is one of those individuals who simply thinks that women shouldn't be there at all.

Had she shown up in a suit, especially one that mimics a man's suit, she would have been considered as inappropriately dressed since women shouldn't wear men's clothing (unseemly!!). Had she shown up in a suit, one tailored for a woman and potentially showing feminine styling, chances are that she would have been inappropriately dressed since "this isn't a fashion show!" She wears something totally inappropriate and she's again tossed out, and in addition ridiculed for wearing such an outfit as being unprofessional. She cannot win here. $tevie had it right, and I'll expand a bit on what she said: back when women began entering into "professional" positions, they were required to wear "womanly" clothing and forsake anything resembling a man's that wasn't already in the public sphere. Women fought hard to be considered as competent as men back then; I guess little has changed.

If you tell me that the other woman there didn't get treated this way, compare the one to the other as far as looks and I can almost guarantee you that the plain one was the one allowed to melt into the background with little comment. It's a skill, and if you get good enough then nobody notices you.

I commend her on her doggedness to pursue the story of the execution. However, if she tries to make the rest of it part of the story, she risks bringing it "all about her" which is NOT the point of the story she came to report. If she tells her story separately, how many people will just give it the eye-roll and walk on? Will YOU?

But it does bring it to a fine point that she complied with the warden's wishes, and wound up looking foolish. That's the real story that was handed to her. I wonder how much her looks contributed to it, not just her clothing.

Oh right, give me the eye-roll and walk on.
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Re: Proper attire to witness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: August 08, 2022 09:20AM
Let me put on my editor's cap...

She was assigned to report on an event, a article was expected from that event. She met all known conditions to attend said event. When she arrived, those conditions changed, if she met them then she could attend. She still was expected to file her article. Through ingenuity and resourcefulness, she was able to meet the altered conditions. She attended the assigned event and filed her article on the said event. As her editor, I am extremely proud of her ability.

As to the conditions she had to meet, that is a completely separate article. One that needed to be reported on several levels. As the editor, I would have assigned a different reporter to follow up to avoid any semblance of a conflict. It is not that the rules are there, that is not the story. The issue and the story is how the rule was applied, when it was applied, and how it was interpreted.

editor cap off, back to retirement



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias
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Re: Proper attire to witness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: Janit
Date: August 08, 2022 03:10PM
Quote
Ombligo
Let me put on my editor's cap...

She was assigned to report on an event, a article was expected from that event. She met all known conditions to attend said event. When she arrived, those conditions changed, if she met them then she could attend. She still was expected to file her article. Through ingenuity and resourcefulness, she was able to meet the altered conditions. She attended the assigned event and filed her article on the said event. As her editor, I am extremely proud of her ability.

As to the conditions she had to meet, that is a completely separate article. One that needed to be reported on several levels. As the editor, I would have assigned a different reporter to follow up to avoid any semblance of a conflict. It is not that the rules are there, that is not the story. The issue and the story is how the rule was applied, when it was applied, and how it was interpreted.

editor cap off, back to retirement

That is exactly how it was done. Hrynkiw wrote a straight news article about the execution, with no mention of the dress code issue. The linked article discussing the dress code kerfuffle was written by a different reporter.
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Re: Proper attire to witness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: August 08, 2022 03:36PM
For the record, this is her almost certainly NOT in her reporter's attire...

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Re: Proper attire to witness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: August 08, 2022 06:19PM
The outfit on the right apparently is the garment in question.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias
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Re: Proper attire to witness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: Speedy
Date: August 08, 2022 08:05PM
Quote
Ombligo
The outfit on the right apparently is the garment in question.

I see the problem; not enough cleavage.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Proper attire to witness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: August 08, 2022 08:42PM
She appears to be wearing shorts in both pics, and not a skirt.

I doubt the outfit on the right is what she wore to an execution.

If it was, the new warden in charge certainly should barred that attire.

But the new warden should have also not allowed waders and tennis shoes.






I am that Masked Man.

Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

I've been to the edge of the map, and there be monsters.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody counts or nobody counts.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Proper attire to witness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: August 08, 2022 08:43PM
I see the problem; not enough cleavage.


Though doth project too much.






I am that Masked Man.

Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

I've been to the edge of the map, and there be monsters.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody counts or nobody counts.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Proper attire to witness an execution in Alabama
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: August 08, 2022 08:54PM
Quote
DeusxMac
For the record, this is her almost certainly NOT in her reporter's attire...


Quote
Ombligo
The outfit on the right apparently is the garment in question.

That apparently is not the case.

The NY Post reports as follows, “[Ivana Hrynkiw]Shatara told The Post that the item was an A-line, black skirt from the brand Philosophy. The skirt was about 1.5 inches above the knee.”

The reporter herself also describes it as a skirt, as opposed to the one piece shown in the photo.

The exact nature of her clothing is moot of course, as it has met standards on more than one occasion before.



National Suicide Prevention Lifeline
As of July 16, 2022, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is now available by simply dialing 988. The previous number, 1-800-273-8255, will remain active.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
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