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Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: Speedy
Date: August 09, 2022 09:20AM
[www.washingtonpost.com]

A brief pictorial.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: mattkime
Date: August 09, 2022 10:16AM
Is there a way to share the article for non subscribers?



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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: August 09, 2022 10:24AM
What really needs to happen is the simplification of tax codes. This is a self created(by the legislature and executive branch) problem. Along with that, the process is far to complex and not nearly automated enough.

Mailed paper copies should be banned and funding can be provided for adding public computer terminals to libraries and government buildings. Make the printable forms so that they can be scanned in on those terminals one page at a time and uploaded into the system with OCR software and then reviewed by the filer at that point for accuracy.

The IRS could be a well oiled machine(without 80 billion) given the right leaders and direction from the government.



C(-)ris
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: pdq
Date: August 09, 2022 10:31AM
Quote
mattkime
Is there a way to share the article for non subscribers?

Here ya go.

Yer welcome.
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: testcase
Date: August 09, 2022 10:34AM
Paywall
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: August 09, 2022 10:36AM
Quote
pdq
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mattkime
Is there a way to share the article for non subscribers?

Here ya go.

Yer welcome.

Thanks! Now that I read the article it seems like IRS management was criminally negligent over the last 30 years. Their motto must be "We've always done it this way and we aren't changing".



C(-)ris
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: wave rider
Date: August 09, 2022 10:52AM
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pdq
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mattkime
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Yer welcome.

Thanks!



=wr=
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: mattkime
Date: August 09, 2022 10:59AM
Quote
C(-)ris
Thanks! Now that I read the article it seems like IRS management was criminally negligent over the last 30 years. Their motto must be "We've always done it this way and we aren't changing".

Blame Grover Norquist. He's convinced the republican party that paying taxes should be as painful as possible. This is the reason why the process is convoluted. States have attempted to simplify their income tax process but find it very difficult when they become the focus of lobbyists.

Its not hard to improve the system - its just hard to get Intuit, accountants, and the Republican party to agree that it should be improved.



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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: August 09, 2022 12:04PM
Quote
mattkime
Is there a way to share the article for non subscribers?

Executive summary:

The IRS has been underfunded for decades even as their responsibilities have increased and is using technology from the 70s-90s (mostly from the 70s).

Now they are way behind.
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: mattkime
Date: August 09, 2022 12:11PM
Quote
Lux Interior
Executive summary:

I like the format and can't help myself -

Executive Summary:

The IRS is working as intended.



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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: JoeH
Date: August 09, 2022 12:12PM
Quote
Lux Interior
Quote
mattkime
Is there a way to share the article for non subscribers?

Executive summary:

The IRS has been underfunded for decades even as their responsibilities have increased and is using technology from the 70s-90s (mostly from the 70s).

Now they are way behind.

Much of that old technology remains in use because funding was never provided for replacement with newer tech. At times that could have been a one time cost that would result in savings for years, but they had to continue with what they already had. Management and legislators rarely look at tech as needing to be on a regularly scheduled replacement program, but will budget maintenance.
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: Acer
Date: August 09, 2022 12:14PM
I don't like pay to taxes. No one does. But I like it less when people who should be paying taxes aren't because the agency responsible is underfunded and outdated. Or even less when I have to fix an error, whether mine or not, and it takes months and months to sort it out.
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: August 09, 2022 12:37PM
Another issue is the tax prep companies have lobbied Congress to keep the current system in place. Even with the current tax code, it should be possible for the IRS to calculate your taxes automatically, a few days after all the companies (employers, banks, investments, creditors, etc.) submit paperwork. Having to navigate a minefield of fees (State free or not, etc.) by TurboTax/TaxAct/H&R-Block is done on purpose.



In tha 360. MRF User Map
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: August 09, 2022 12:41PM
that's just what They want you to believe! there are secret bunkers with 1920s bottles of scotch that are only used by the Elite! these people are just pawns! dragged out for Photo Ops! the real work goes on Behind Scenes at the mountain Lair they use. you can't beat the Deep State!!1!
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: SDGuy
Date: August 09, 2022 12:59PM
"The IRS warns on its website that the whole process can take six months or more. And that’s if no errors are detected."

Ah - that explains why I'm still waiting for the refunds for my (died in 2021) Father's Estate; wasn't allowed to e-file, so had to send in paper forms (done in late March).
BUT - California seemed to have no problem processing, essentially, the same thing (also on paper) - the refund from them was direct deposited about a month after filing.
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: pinion
Date: August 09, 2022 01:05PM
Quote
pdq
Quote
mattkime
Is there a way to share the article for non subscribers?

Here ya go.

Yer welcome.

Thank you. I ended up installing greasemonkey scripts to get around it before I saw this. How did you get a non-paywall link? Is it that you already subscribe and you can share articles that way?



---“What you permit, you promote. What you allow, you encourage. What you condone, you own.”
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: $tevie
Date: August 09, 2022 01:56PM
Quote
pinion
Quote
pdq
Quote
mattkime
Is there a way to share the article for non subscribers?

Here ya go.

Yer welcome.

Thank you. I ended up installing greasemonkey scripts to get around it before I saw this. How did you get a non-paywall link? Is it that you already subscribe and you can share articles that way?
Subscribers can gift a limited amount of articles each month.



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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: August 09, 2022 02:51PM
Quote
C(-)ris
Mailed paper copies should be banned and funding can be provided for adding public computer terminals to libraries and government buildings. Make the printable forms so that they can be scanned in on those terminals one page at a time and uploaded into the system with OCR software and then reviewed by the filer at that point for accuracy.

Assumes all filers are near and able to get to “libraries and government buildings”.
Assumes all filers can get to those locations when they are open for this purpose.
Assumes all filers are sufficiently computer-literate to use the “public computer terminals”.
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: $tevie
Date: August 09, 2022 04:24PM
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
C(-)ris
Mailed paper copies should be banned and funding can be provided for adding public computer terminals to libraries and government buildings. Make the printable forms so that they can be scanned in on those terminals one page at a time and uploaded into the system with OCR software and then reviewed by the filer at that point for accuracy.

Assumes all filers are near and able to get to “libraries and government buildings”.
Assumes all filers can get to those locations when they are open for this purpose.
Assumes all filers are sufficiently computer-literate to use the “public computer terminals”.
Assumes that many people won't become hysterical when forced to file taxes in public spaces.



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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: Speedy
Date: August 09, 2022 06:49PM
I’m still waiting for the IRS to find my 2016 paper return I filed four months before the deadline to be able to get a refund for that year. My accountant has all my returns up-to-date but is holding onto them until the IRS finds my 2016 return, only having me file as each years refund deadline approaches. Fortunately he had me mail all the returns certified mail, return receipt requested so I have the receipt that they received my 2016 return.

I do the same for my state return which I mail at the same time. This is one more proof that I filed the actual return because the feds and state received the returns at the same time give or take a day. The state keeps records of when they received the state return and attached to the state return is my federal return. Otherwise the IRS had denied receiving the return. My accountant says that was enough to convince the IRS agent that I filed in a timely manner. In other words, the IRS would most likely lose in tax court due to my mailing proof as well as the nightmare the IRS currently is as well as it has been in the recent past.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: August 09, 2022 08:52PM
Quote
$tevie
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
C(-)ris
Mailed paper copies should be banned and funding can be provided for adding public computer terminals to libraries and government buildings. Make the printable forms so that they can be scanned in on those terminals one page at a time and uploaded into the system with OCR software and then reviewed by the filer at that point for accuracy.

Assumes all filers are near and able to get to “libraries and government buildings”.
Assumes all filers can get to those locations when they are open for this purpose.
Assumes all filers are sufficiently computer-literate to use the “public computer terminals”.
Assumes that many people won't become hysterical when forced to file taxes in public spaces.

Fringe cases. If you build systems for the .000001% everyone else will suffer.



C(-)ris
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: JoeH
Date: August 09, 2022 09:18PM
Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
$tevie
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
C(-)ris
Mailed paper copies should be banned and funding can be provided for adding public computer terminals to libraries and government buildings. Make the printable forms so that they can be scanned in on those terminals one page at a time and uploaded into the system with OCR software and then reviewed by the filer at that point for accuracy.

Assumes all filers are near and able to get to “libraries and government buildings”.
Assumes all filers can get to those locations when they are open for this purpose.
Assumes all filers are sufficiently computer-literate to use the “public computer terminals”.
Assumes that many people won't become hysterical when forced to file taxes in public spaces.

Fringe cases. If you build systems for the .000001% everyone else will suffer.

Another of your wrong assumptions, the people who fall out of those categories are far from "fringe cases". From what I have seen, more like at least 20-30%. But you can extrapolate from your limited experience and com up with nonsense like this.
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: gabester
Date: August 10, 2022 08:27AM
Quote
JoeH
Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
$tevie
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
C(-)ris
Mailed paper copies should be banned and funding can be provided for adding public computer terminals...

Assumes all filers...
Assumes that many people won't become hysterical when forced to file taxes in public spaces...

Fringe cases. If you build systems for the .000001% everyone else will suffer...

Another of your wrong assumptions, the people who fall out of those categories are far from "fringe cases". From what I have seen, more like at least 20-30%. But you can extrapolate from your limited experience and com up with nonsense like this.

How about we build a system like some Scandinavian country I've heard of - the government sends you a notice of what your filing/return will be based on the information they have for you and you can choose to amend if there's something they don't know about.

And all the information is public. There's no reason for it to be secret that your next door neighbor has a villa with a bunker with 1920s era scotch. Why should it be? That way if anyone seems to suddenly come unto new wealth, their neighbors can remind them to file the income source or report the new criminal enterprise.



g=
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: pdq
Date: August 10, 2022 09:33AM
Quote
$tevie
Quote
pinion
Quote
pdq
Quote
mattkime
Is there a way to share the article for non subscribers?

Here ya go.

Yer welcome.

Thank you. I ended up installing greasemonkey scripts to get around it before I saw this. How did you get a non-paywall link? Is it that you already subscribe and you can share articles that way?
Subscribers can gift a limited amount of articles each month.

^ this is exactly right.
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: August 10, 2022 10:42AM
Quote
JoeH
Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
$tevie
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
C(-)ris
Mailed paper copies should be banned and funding can be provided for adding public computer terminals to libraries and government buildings. Make the printable forms so that they can be scanned in on those terminals one page at a time and uploaded into the system with OCR software and then reviewed by the filer at that point for accuracy.

Assumes all filers are near and able to get to “libraries and government buildings”.
Assumes all filers can get to those locations when they are open for this purpose.
Assumes all filers are sufficiently computer-literate to use the “public computer terminals”.
Assumes that many people won't become hysterical when forced to file taxes in public spaces.

Fringe cases. If you build systems for the .000001% everyone else will suffer.

Another of your wrong assumptions, the people who fall out of those categories are far from "fringe cases". From what I have seen, more like at least 20-30%. But you can extrapolate from your limited experience and com up with nonsense like this.

How many people(or their legal proxy) can possibly not have their own computer or not be able to get to a public area given a 4 month window of time? There is no way that is 20-30% of the taxbase. Most people file paper forms because they don't want to do electronic, not because they can't. Or because the IRS required the paper version for something, which could be easily changed.



C(-)ris
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: Speedy
Date: August 10, 2022 10:52AM
Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
JoeH
Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
$tevie
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
C(-)ris
Mailed paper copies should be banned and funding can be provided for adding public computer terminals to libraries and government buildings. Make the printable forms so that they can be scanned in on those terminals one page at a time and uploaded into the system with OCR software and then reviewed by the filer at that point for accuracy.

Assumes all filers are near and able to get to “libraries and government buildings”.
Assumes all filers can get to those locations when they are open for this purpose.
Assumes all filers are sufficiently computer-literate to use the “public computer terminals”.
Assumes that many people won't become hysterical when forced to file taxes in public spaces.

Fringe cases. If you build systems for the .000001% everyone else will suffer.

Another of your wrong assumptions, the people who fall out of those categories are far from "fringe cases". From what I have seen, more like at least 20-30%. But you can extrapolate from your limited experience and com up with nonsense like this.

How many people(or their legal proxy) can possibly not have their own computer or not be able to get to a public area given a 4 month window of time? There is no way that is 20-30% of the taxbase. Most people file paper forms because they don't want to do electronic, not because they can't. Or because the IRS required the paper version for something, which could be easily changed.

If you don’t file the current tax year within a certain timeframe after April 15 you must file a paper return. Yes, the IRS could fix that but the Republicans would not fund the electronic upgrades to allow this to happen.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: August 10, 2022 11:05AM
Quote
C(-)ris
How many people(or their legal proxy) can possibly not have their own computer or not be able to get to a public area given a 4 month window of time? There is no way that is 20-30% of the taxbase. Most people file paper forms because they don't want to do electronic, not because they can't. Or because the IRS required the paper version for something, which could be easily changed.

It's not a 4 month window. It's more like 9 weeks from the time I get all my documents in the mail. It was always a dash to the finish line for my parents to get everything to their tax preparer and get an appointment to meet to review/sign final forms.

The system isn't easily changed, because of all the tax prep companies lobbying as I said before.



In tha 360. MRF User Map
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: JoeH
Date: August 10, 2022 11:14AM
Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
JoeH
Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
$tevie
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
C(-)ris
Mailed paper copies should be banned and funding can be provided for adding public computer terminals to libraries and government buildings. Make the printable forms so that they can be scanned in on those terminals one page at a time and uploaded into the system with OCR software and then reviewed by the filer at that point for accuracy.

Assumes all filers are near and able to get to “libraries and government buildings”.
Assumes all filers can get to those locations when they are open for this purpose.
Assumes all filers are sufficiently computer-literate to use the “public computer terminals”.
Assumes that many people won't become hysterical when forced to file taxes in public spaces.

Fringe cases. If you build systems for the .000001% everyone else will suffer.

Another of your wrong assumptions, the people who fall out of those categories are far from "fringe cases". From what I have seen, more like at least 20-30%. But you can extrapolate from your limited experience and com up with nonsense like this.

How many people(or their legal proxy) can possibly not have their own computer or not be able to get to a public area given a 4 month window of time? There is no way that is 20-30% of the taxbase. Most people file paper forms because they don't want to do electronic, not because they can't. Or because the IRS required the paper version for something, which could be easily changed.

Let me guess, you have mostly lived in urban or suburban, middle class locations. Get outside of those and things like libraries, government buildings, etc. get either less existent, smaller, farther away, etc. Transportation to those may not be available to those without their own vehicle. Hours may not align with work schedules as well.

Then there is your assumption of computer ownership, it is more common now, but still not anywhere close to 100% in lower income areas. Working at the university library I got to see how many incoming students came from low income families and not able to afford adding a laptop to their college costs, and had not had any computer at home while in high school.
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: kj
Date: August 10, 2022 02:52PM
"Among all households in 2018, 92% had at least one type of computer and 85% had a broadband internet subscription. The ACS considers desktops, laptops, tablets, and smartphones as computers, along with selected computing technologies such as smart home devices and single-board computers."

I don't think computerization is the problem though. Muffman is right. It's that and that complexity introduces plenty of loopholes for people who can afford someone to help exploit them.
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: August 10, 2022 03:22PM
Quote

The ACS considers…smartphones as computers, along with…smart home devices

Doesn’t this seem to drastically, artificially inflate those 92% and 85% claims when discussing people’s actual ability to file their income taxes online?
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: AllGold
Date: August 10, 2022 04:13PM
How are they gathering their data, by internet? wink smiley
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: $tevie
Date: August 10, 2022 06:10PM
Quote
JoeH
Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
JoeH
Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
$tevie
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
C(-)ris
Mailed paper copies should be banned and funding can be provided for adding public computer terminals to libraries and government buildings. Make the printable forms so that they can be scanned in on those terminals one page at a time and uploaded into the system with OCR software and then reviewed by the filer at that point for accuracy.

Assumes all filers are near and able to get to “libraries and government buildings”.
Assumes all filers can get to those locations when they are open for this purpose.
Assumes all filers are sufficiently computer-literate to use the “public computer terminals”.
Assumes that many people won't become hysterical when forced to file taxes in public spaces.

Fringe cases. If you build systems for the .000001% everyone else will suffer.

Another of your wrong assumptions, the people who fall out of those categories are far from "fringe cases". From what I have seen, more like at least 20-30%. But you can extrapolate from your limited experience and com up with nonsense like this.

How many people(or their legal proxy) can possibly not have their own computer or not be able to get to a public area given a 4 month window of time? There is no way that is 20-30% of the taxbase. Most people file paper forms because they don't want to do electronic, not because they can't. Or because the IRS required the paper version for something, which could be easily changed.

Let me guess, you have mostly lived in urban or suburban, middle class locations. Get outside of those and things like libraries, government buildings, etc. get either less existent, smaller, farther away, etc. Transportation to those may not be available to those without their own vehicle. Hours may not align with work schedules as well.

Then there is your assumption of computer ownership, it is more common now, but still not anywhere close to 100% in lower income areas. Working at the university library I got to see how many incoming students came from low income families and not able to afford adding a laptop to their college costs, and had not had any computer at home while in high school.
And people who live in godforsaken places that still have dsl, and sometimes really lousy dsl. 70% of rural residents to be precise.



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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: Speedy
Date: August 11, 2022 05:26AM
Quote
$tevie
Quote
JoeH
Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
JoeH
Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
$tevie
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
C(-)ris
Mailed paper copies should be banned and funding can be provided for adding public computer terminals to libraries and government buildings. Make the printable forms so that they can be scanned in on those terminals one page at a time and uploaded into the system with OCR software and then reviewed by the filer at that point for accuracy.

Assumes all filers are near and able to get to “libraries and government buildings”.
Assumes all filers can get to those locations when they are open for this purpose.
Assumes all filers are sufficiently computer-literate to use the “public computer terminals”.
Assumes that many people won't become hysterical when forced to file taxes in public spaces.

Fringe cases. If you build systems for the .000001% everyone else will suffer.

Another of your wrong assumptions, the people who fall out of those categories are far from "fringe cases". From what I have seen, more like at least 20-30%. But you can extrapolate from your limited experience and com up with nonsense like this.

How many people(or their legal proxy) can possibly not have their own computer or not be able to get to a public area given a 4 month window of time? There is no way that is 20-30% of the taxbase. Most people file paper forms because they don't want to do electronic, not because they can't. Or because the IRS required the paper version for something, which could be easily changed.

Let me guess, you have mostly lived in urban or suburban, middle class locations. Get outside of those and things like libraries, government buildings, etc. get either less existent, smaller, farther away, etc. Transportation to those may not be available to those without their own vehicle. Hours may not align with work schedules as well.

Then there is your assumption of computer ownership, it is more common now, but still not anywhere close to 100% in lower income areas. Working at the university library I got to see how many incoming students came from low income families and not able to afford adding a laptop to their college costs, and had not had any computer at home while in high school.
And people who live in godforsaken places that still have dsl, and sometimes really lousy dsl. 70% of rural residents to be precise.

Rural residents don’t make enough to pay taxes except for big-time farmers getting farm welfare and they can afford an accountant.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: August 11, 2022 07:49AM
Quote
Speedy
Rural residents don’t make enough to pay taxes except for big-time farmers getting farm welfare and they can afford an accountant.

jest smiley
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: kj
Date: August 11, 2022 06:08PM
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote

The ACS considers…smartphones as computers, along with…smart home devices

Doesn’t this seem to drastically, artificially inflate those 92% and 85% claims when discussing people’s actual ability to file their income taxes online?

I think it said 75% have a desktop or laptop. But whatever, even 8% of everybody is a lot of people. I just wanted to show the numbers are easy to find instead of pulling stuff out our butts. But, like Muffman said, that doesn't have anything to do with the problem, even if it is a problem.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2022 06:08PM by kj.
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Re: Why does the IRS need $80 billion? Just look at its cafeteria.
Posted by: Mr645
Date: August 14, 2022 07:59AM
Using out tax dollars to hire 87,000 agents to collect more of our tax dollars.
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