They want to live completely enclosed in a 17th century Middle European Shtetl.

BTW, all Ultra Orthodox are not behind this. You can attend a yeshiva with all the regular classes in addition to the Talmud/Torah study. There are different sects with different leaders.

Now that I've said that, I think those fighting the full curriculums are idiots.

Is there a link to further information about the situation?

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“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias

The German word for contraceptive is “Schwangerschaftsverhütungsmittel”. By the time you finished saying that, it’s too late

While youre searching for that link, I saw another story the other day that it appears that corruption in the city gov't allowed these schools to continue even though the kids were not learning enough to pass remedial testing. The Hasidic voting block is quite powerful (in NYC).

nah.. I can't do that without a link...

In Hasidic Enclaves, Failing Private Schools Flush With Public Money

The Hasidic Jewish community has long operated one of New York’s largest private schools on its own terms, resisting any outside scrutiny of how its students are faring.

But in 2019, the school, the Central United Talmudical Academy, agreed to give state standardized tests in reading and math to more than 1,000 students.

Every one of them failed.

Students at nearly a dozen other schools run by the Hasidic community recorded similarly dismal outcomes that year, a pattern that under ordinary circumstances would signal an education system in crisis. But where other schools might be struggling because of underfunding or mismanagement, these schools are different. They are failing by design.

The leaders of New York’s Hasidic community have built scores of private schools to educate children in Jewish law, prayer and tradition — and to wall them off from the secular world. Offering little English and math, and virtually no science or history, they drill students relentlessly, sometimes brutally, during hours of religious lessons conducted in Yiddish.

The result, a New York Times investigation has found, is that generations of children have been systematically denied a basic education, trapping many of them in a cycle of joblessness and dependency.

Segregated by gender, the Hasidic system fails most starkly in its more than 100 schools for boys. Spread across Brooklyn and the lower Hudson Valley, the schools turn out thousands of students each year who are unprepared to navigate the outside world, helping to push poverty rates in Hasidic neighborhoods to some of the highest in New York.

The schools appear to be operating in violation of state laws that guarantee children an adequate education. Even so, The Times found, the Hasidic boys’ schools have found ways of tapping into enormous sums of government money, collecting more than $1 billion in the past four years alone.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2022 04:50PM by hal.

try this==> [nypost.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2022 05:07PM by Steve G..

They're being asked to be accountable to NY public school standards, given the tax breaks and other approvals to offer their alternative schooling.

They're fighting the dream of Christian schools everywhere, basically.

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Steve G.
They want to live completely enclosed in a 17th century Middle European Shtetl.

BTW, all Ultra Orthodox are not behind this. You can attend a yeshiva with all the regular classes in addition to the Talmud/Torah study. There are different sects with different leaders.

Now that I've said that, I think those fighting the full curriculums are idiots.

Do you know which particular groups do this? The popular press tends to use the term Hasidim to mean all Hasidim, as well as all Haredim.

here's a piece from the NY Daily News

For a decade, woefully underprepared graduates of ultra-Orthodox yeshivas have pleaded for New York City and State officials to require that these schools also provide their students the basics of a secular education. And for a decade, those pleas have been answered with cowardly buckling to a powerful political constituency telling officials to butt out.

With the final passage by the Board of Regents of new state regulations today, officials will get another chance. They must demand reform. Failing that, there must be severe consequences.

State law has long required the instruction a child receives to be “substantially equivalent to the instruction given to minors of like age and attainments at the public schools of the city or district where the minor resides.” This doesn’t mean Christian, Jewish, Muslim or secular classes must parrot those in the public schools, but that, in their own way, they must impart the basics in English, math, science and social studies. Anything less is educational neglect.

Substantially equivalent means everyone. (Drew Angerer/Getty Images/Getty Images)

But neglect has been the norm for tens of thousands of Hasidic youngsters in Brooklyn and Rockland and Orange counties. With notable exceptions, students graduate without the skills and knowledge necessary to make them employable. In 2019, when a timid, long-delayed New York City investigation finally came out, it found that just two of 28 inspected yeshivas met the bar.

New state rules give non-public schools multiple ways to prove they are fulfilling their legal obligations. Among others, they can be approved by an accepted educational accreditor; participate in the International Baccalaureate program; or regularly administer state-approved tests to their students. Otherwise, they invite a review by local officials — potentially triggering a remedial action plan and ultimately being deemed in defiance of state law.

It will soon fall to local officials, including Eric Adams — who as a candidate pooh-poohed criticism of the schools — to have the fortitude to inspect classrooms with the same seriousness health inspectors bring to doling out restaurant grades. Schools that fail children must shape up or be shut down.

on the other hand....
Opinion
Hasidic families deserve a choice
By Eli Federman
New York Daily News
•
Sep 13, 2022

The New York State Board of Regents is passing new rules meant to enforce the state’s “substantial equivalency” law, so that yeshivas must offer more robust coursework in subjects like math, English and science. For years media outlets have been spotlighting deficiencies in standardized testing results in yeshivas.

But many Hasidic Jewish people don’t have the same value system which defines success as climbing the socioeconomic corporate ladder and becoming a doctor or lawyer with a good salary. They value studying ancient texts in Aramaic and biblical Hebrew, learning Jewish philosophy, history, ethics and Talmudic exegesis. The law should respect them and give them the freedom to raise their children as they see fit.

Even if the data is correct that the yeshiva students are faring poorly on standardized tests and white-collar jobs are the exception, so what? Do all Jewish people need to excel as doctors, lawyers, accountants and other professions that the secular world respects? Western democracies should give wide latitude to those seeking alternative lifestyles so long as people have basic health and safety standards met.

Hasidic people, who often get jobs as teachers in yeshivas and kosher supervisors, typically live modest lives. Those jobs don’t require English and math proficiency since they are within the Hasidic communities. Many also work blue-collar jobs like packing grocery shelves, delivering food, working in Amazon merchant warehouses, and the like.

Those members that become financially successful through real estate, e-commerce or other industries, give back to the community and help support other members that dedicate their lives to spending time in the study halls. They also have free-loan societies, and numerous charitable organizations that help those struggling in their communities.

It’s absolutely heartbreaking how Hasidic Jews that leave the community are left at a grave disadvantage due to inadequate literacy skills and secular knowledge.

But this is a challenge when anyone, including immigrants, or even secular Jews becoming Hasidic have to integrate into a new society and culture. There are great organizations such as Footsteps that help those who have left Hasidic communities integrate into broader society.

My father and mother sent me to a Hebrew school that had secular studies. My father later homeschooled me because he didn’t approve of either the public education system or the Jewish private schools. So I value secular education and alternative educational systems. I ultimately graduated from college and law school. My wife has a doctorate in nursing. My kids go to a Jewish school that has a high standard of English and secular education. That is what I chose for my family.

But we shouldn’t impose our worldview on the insular Hasidic Jewish world. Education is not monolithic. Parents make those choices for their children. People should be permitted to sacrifice Western comforts to emphasize and preserve their way of life.

The Amish do it too. They often forgo modern technology (not just smartphones like many Hasidic Jews, but even air conditioning!) and live a blue-collar farming life. They also often have poorer literacy skills compared to the general population, with one study finding that 12% of Amish read at or lower than a sixth-grade level compared to just 2.6% of non-Amish, and stop formal schooling altogether after eighth grade. People in these communities find comfort, purpose and meaning living according to the traditions they seek to preserve in a world that they perceive as hostile to a simpler life.

In Wisconsin v. Yoder, the Supreme Court held that the Amish Mennonite Church had a religious right to refuse compulsory English education. There is a long line of cases that also protect the rights of parents to decide how to raise their children.

If the yeshiva issue gets to the Supreme Court, Hasidic people will likely win especially given the very conservative composition of the court. As a result, they will become more entrenched in anti-secular education ideology and view it as a victory against attacks on their religion. It will, unfortunately, create even more resistance to voluntary secular education.

Native Americans were once forced into boarding schools to rob them of their way of life and language, reeducating them in the name of assimilating and integrating them into society. The horrific motto was “kill the Indian, and save the man.” Hasidic Jewish boys in czarist Russia were forcibly conscripted and reeducated to abandon their way of life.

Of course, New York State’s attempted coercion is much more subtle and humane today, and even allows Hasidic people the ability to maintain their faith, schools and customs. And so you might ask: What harm is there in improving English literacy, studying civics, and math? But the historical parallels and rationale are the same. Why can’t these people just live like everyone else? Speak the same language. Think the same way. Get the same jobs. Conform to societal norms. And that is wrong.

It is not the purpose of education to turn children into ignorant bigoted clones of their parents.

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Spock
It is not the purpose of education to turn children into ignorant bigoted clones of their parents.

The Supreme Court will probably disagree with you.

fine with me, as long as they move to their own country.

here in the USA, we cannot tolerate ignorant people.

let them sit in jail then.
we have enough stoopit people living in the 1950s, we don't need the 1500s too.

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Nobody remembers their first download, but everyone remembers their 1st LP.

It's an interesting point/counterpoint situation. I'm not about to offer up an opinion because I could argue both sides equally. However, the schools should not receive funding if they will not meet the standards required.

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“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias

The German word for contraceptive is “Schwangerschaftsverhütungsmittel”. By the time you finished saying that, it’s too late

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gadje
fine with me, as long as they move to their own country.

here in the USA, we cannot tolerate ignorant people.

Alas, one political party embraces and encourages them…

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Janit
Do you know which particular groups do this? The popular press tends to use the term Hasidim to mean all Hasidim, as well as all Haredim.

The NYT article repeatedly states that it is not all Hasidic schools but some of the ultra observant ones. It still is affecting large numbers of children and it seems boys are more affected than girls.

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If you want to fix our country, work with us in the states. statesproject.org

"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama

I think it's reasonable to argue that children need protection from the more extreme and dangerous practices of some parents -- I'm referring specifically to parents who refuse to allow medical care for potentially lethal infectious diseases such as meningitis. There are also cases where children have died from potentially curable childhood cancers, again due to refusal on the part of the parents.

In this case, I would submit that there is a legitimate question as to whether something analogous is going on, in the sense that the children are being kept ignorant of a major part of our civilization. Particularly when the children are being kept ignorant of the subject we used to call civics, there is a serious issue. The need for an informed electorate is one of our founding principles.

Our civilization puts limits on religious practice. We draw the line at ritual murder and child beating (not to mention wife beating) and I suspect that most child protection agencies would intervene when parents raise their children as Nazis and the equivalent. We also require vaccination -- for another reason, having to do with protecting the rest of the public.

The question here, it would seem to me, is whether the most extreme practices are detrimental to the children because the children are deprived of some critically important choices because they are deprived of the knowledge that these choices exist. There is a second, equally important question, namely whether such practices create enclaves that are a danger to the democratic functioning of the city and the state. For example, are the children kept ignorant of the principle of separation of church and state (seems unlikely) and are they kept ignorant of American history (seems likely) along with basic arithmetic and all that.

The Amish limit schooling to eighth grade. The limit is set to be sufficient to operate within the Amish community, where vocations are primarily manual. On the other hand, they take no public dollars.

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Acer
The Amish limit schooling to eighth grade. The limit is set to be sufficient to operate within the Amish community, where vocations are primarily manual. On the other hand, they take no public dollars.

And that is fine with me. I visited Amish farms and Mennonite and those are fine with me as they do not take public dollars and they do not make protests like these.

There's nothing surprising about this. Its the consequence of having a special interest group that votes en masse for a single candidate. If you live near them long enough you see the surprising ways in which the rules don't quite apply to them the way they do to everyone else. When they don't like certain city policies they have a way of changing things through secretive processes.

They're religious zealots who want to wall themselves off except when the state has something to offer, usually money. They're happy to take our money.

NYC politics is a special kind of awful.

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gadje
fine with me, as long as they move to their own country.

here in the USA, we cannot tolerate ignorant people.

Eh, we have a lot of those anyway, sadly.

In any case, mostly okay with me - we give parents a lot of leeway in raising their kids in this country, as long as they don’t kill them - but not using my tax money, please.

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graylocks

Quote
Janit
Do you know which particular groups do this? The popular press tends to use the term Hasidim to mean all Hasidim, as well as all Haredim.

The NYT article repeatedly states that it is not all Hasidic schools but some of the ultra observant ones. It still is affecting large numbers of children and it seems boys are more affected than girls.

The Ultra-Orthodox Jewish community is a convoluted tangle of factions that sometimes cooperate with one another and sometimes vilify one another for not being sufficiently observant.

It is important to remember that the arguments made on both sides rely on "facts" that should be further investigated in order to determine if they are actual facts.

Naftuli Moster, founder of YAFFED (Young Advocates for Fair Education), has argued that many members of the Hasidic community would like to see their children receive more secular education, but are afraid to speak up publicly for fear of ostracism from the community.

Moster, who was educated in a Yeshiva run by the Belz Hassidim, is now vilified by the leaders of many Hasidic groups.

[www.nytimes.com]

Take state money, follow state rules.

@mattkime

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mattkime
... If you live near them long enough you see the surprising ways in which the rules don't quite apply to them the way they do to everyone else. When they don't like certain city policies they have a way of changing things through secretive processes.

They're religious zealots who want to wall themselves off except when the state has something to offer, usually money. They're happy to take our money.

'They'?
a rather disappointing response once all the previous explanations of the situation have been posted...'THEY'.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2022 04:00PM by Steve G..

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Steve G.

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Spock
It is not the purpose of education to turn children into ignorant bigoted clones of their parents.

The Supreme Court will probably disagree with you.

Alas, you are probably right.

It's also DEath Santis's guiding principle.

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Comedy Central: Best news channel that isn't a news channel.

Fox News: Best comedy channel that isn't a comedy channel.

Quote
Steve G.
'They'?
a rather disappointing response once all the previous explanations of the situation have been posted...'THEY'.

Its a pronoun. What do you take issue with?

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are we discussing religion in general?


"Did you make man-Kind
After we made you?
And the devil too!"

XTC - Andy Partidge

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