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Answer me this
Posted by: PeterB
Date: September 20, 2022 02:35PM
Why hasn't this guy been arrested yet?

1) Incited a violent insurrection against the duly-elected representatives of the United States government, including death threats against his own Vice-President, and not doing much of anything while this was happening;

2) Very likely colluded with Russia to influence the outcome of both the 2016 and 2020 elections, and is, in all likelihood, a Russian asset-- or at the very least, in league with them;

3) Intentionally took classified documents home with him and obstructed their return, with the implication that these documents and/or their contents could have been intercepted by agents of foreign powers or that he might have provided (or will provide) information on their contents to these powers;

and most recently:

4) Stated that if he's indicted, there would be "big problems", claiming that he is "not inciting", but also not refusing to admit that the "big problems" could be violence. (Walks like a duck, talks like a duck... the courts have already ruled that if you produce inflammatory rhetoric, you can be held responsible for the outcomes thereof.)

Inquiring minds want to know.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: GGD
Date: September 20, 2022 02:40PM
His defense will be that while in office he told over 30,000 lies, so nobody should believe anything that he says.
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: September 20, 2022 02:55PM
Because the FBI and DOJ are being very very very careful. That's how they roll... they make their cases one piece of paper at a time. So there is no chance of any loophole.
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: Lizabeth
Date: September 20, 2022 03:05PM
Quote
cbelt3
Because the FBI and DOJ are being very very very careful. That's how they roll... they make their cases one piece of paper at a time. So there is no chance of any loophole.

I'd rather them be careful so that piece of crap won't wiggle out of anything once convected - I want him to wet his pants once the door slams shut for good.

Or drop dead of a heart attack in the middle of a rally. I'd live with that.
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: September 20, 2022 03:08PM
Quote
cbelt3
Because the FBI and DOJ are being very very very careful. That's how they roll... they make their cases one piece of paper at a time. So there is no chance of any loophole.

Yep, and even more so because he is a former President. The risk to any agency that investigates him is huge.

Fulton County DA is also being extremely careful. And NY State AG.
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: GGD
Date: September 20, 2022 03:21PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
cbelt3
Because the FBI and DOJ are being very very very careful. That's how they roll... they make their cases one piece of paper at a time. So there is no chance of any loophole.

Yep, and even more so because he is a former President. The risk to any agency that investigates him is huge.

Fulton County DA is also being extremely careful. And NY State AG.

I hope that the DOJ had already interviewed Reince Priebus, John Kelly, Mick Mulvaney and Mark Meadows and asked each one if they were aware of a standing order to declassify documents while they were Chief of Staff. And if so determine when it was initiated an what documentation might exist. And see if each of their successors were also aware of this standing order.
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: vision63
Date: September 20, 2022 03:31PM
It took what, 2 years to bump off Nixon. This guy is one of the most powerful people in the world. They're not going to bring forth any charges that aren't slam dunks.
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: Grateful11
Date: September 20, 2022 04:11PM
Because he's Teflon Don, nothing sticks to his slimy butt.



Grateful11
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: September 20, 2022 04:15PM
Love how the Special Master shot down Trump's lawyer today.

Now Big Baby will bitch that the Special Master he demanded and chose was rigged against him.
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: Don C
Date: September 20, 2022 04:16PM
Here's a thought: If The Guy can't or won't read, how does he know what he actually had in his possession. He would have to understand what each document says to maximize their worth on the market. Or was he just doing a storage locker sale, I've a box of documents available to the higher bidder?
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: GGD
Date: September 20, 2022 04:32PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Love how the Special Master shot down Trump's lawyer today.

Now Big Baby will bitch that the Special Master he demanded and chose was rigged against him.

I believe that as part of the ruling to allow the Special Master it was also ruled that Trump would have to pay the full cost (he wanted DOJ to pay 50%), so what happens when the Special Master doesn't get paid, especially since he didn't produce the result he wanted. Why would he pay for something that is not benefiting him. Hope the guy asked for pay in advance or an escrow account.
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: September 20, 2022 04:41PM

but then he would miss all those 'Springtime For Hitler' moments


He's not a 'big baby', he's a psychopath
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: Tiangou
Date: September 20, 2022 04:43PM
Quote
GGD
I believe that as part of the ruling to allow the Special Master it was also ruled that Trump would have to pay the full cost (he wanted DOJ to pay 50%), so what happens when the Special Master doesn't get paid, especially since he didn't produce the result he wanted. Why would he pay for something that is not benefiting him. Hope the guy asked for pay in advance or an escrow account.

The RNC pays his legal bills.

He's not out of pocket for one tin penny.



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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: hal
Date: September 20, 2022 04:43PM
Quote
Steve G.
He's not a 'big baby', he's a psychopath

the two are not mutually exclusive...
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: PeterB
Date: September 20, 2022 05:00PM
Quote
cbelt3
Because the FBI and DOJ are being very very very careful. That's how they roll... they make their cases one piece of paper at a time. So there is no chance of any loophole.

This is the only answer that makes ANY sense to me. If this guy were anyone other than who he is (or more precisely, who he USED to be), he would have been long since prosecuted and locked up by now.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: $tevie
Date: September 20, 2022 05:07PM
I'm incredibly frustrated that Trump still walks free.

But one thing I am telling myself is that Trump was the one who started all the hype about the classified documents by announcing he was being "raided" and then demanding the warrant be made public.

I'm assuming DoJ had a timeline for this investigation and that their current problem is trying to achieve it despite the roadblocks the Trump gang is throwing in their path. In other words, we should have only a vague awareness that the FBI took the documents and none of this courtroom drama should be happening - that is what makes waiting even more unbearable than before.



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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: Ca Bob
Date: September 20, 2022 05:14PM
Yes, if he had not been the president, his possession of the documents would already have him in jail. However, as president he presumably had a right to have them in his possession, so the crime consists of his taking them from the White House and keeping them when he was no longer the president.

I would guess that the DOJ and the Biden administration are being very careful because they don't want to give any future administration an excuse to investigate and indict any/every Democratic former president.

I saw an interesting argument on another site earlier today, in response to a question about whether an indictment of Trump would result in a civil war. The answer was that we are already in one and have been in it for a while, as evidenced by the random acts of right wing violence as well as the organized acts of right wing violence such as the tiki torch parade and riot, the January 6 riot, and various state house attacks and the hundreds of threats.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2022 10:10PM by Ca Bob.
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: PeterB
Date: September 20, 2022 06:00PM
Quote
Ca Bob
Yes, if he had not been the president, his possession of the documents would already have him in jail. However, as president he presumably had a right to have them in his possession, so the crime consists of his taking them from the White House and keeping them when he was no longer the president.

I would guess that the DOJ and the Biden administration are being very careful because they don't want to give any future administration and excuse to investigate and indict any/every Democratic former president.

I saw an interesting argument on another site earlier today, in response to a question about whether an indictment of Trump would result in a civil war. The answer was that we are already in one and have been in it for a while, as evidenced by the random acts of right wing violence as well as the organized acts of right wing violence such as the tiki torch parade and riot, the January 6 riot, and various state house attacks and the hundreds of threats.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as President, I'm not sure he had a right to have them in his possession -- classified records being the property of the government, NOT of the President. Did he have a right to access them? Yes, but that's not the same as their being in his possession or his property. (I feel like this is an important distinction to make, because if they never belonged to him in the first place, that even further proves that he had no right to take them with him after he left office.)

And I think it's unlikely that any future administration would investigate and indict every Democratic former president, because not every Democratic former president (or any former president for that matter, since Nixon) has violated the Presidential Records Act in the way that Dump has.

As far as us already being in a Civil War, I feel it's more like a Cold Civil War, in that the elements you mentioned tend not to rear their ugly heads openly and instead work behind the scenes, as we've seen with the recent overturning of Roe (as one example). It's when someone like Dump comes along and incites, that the elements feel entitled and able to openly pull their shenanigans.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: RgrF
Date: September 20, 2022 06:13PM
Quote
PeterB
Quote
cbelt3
Because the FBI and DOJ are being very very very careful. That's how they roll... they make their cases one piece of paper at a time. So there is no chance of any loophole.

This is the only answer that makes ANY sense to me. If this guy were anyone other than who he is (or more precisely, who he USED to be), he would have been long since prosecuted and locked up by now.

That and the fact he persuaded over 70 million people to vote for him, people wont want to think they were fooled and don't easily admit to that level of mistake.

As others have pointed out, they need an ironclad case, one that can be sold to the public before they indict. This close to election any move they make is fraught with danger.
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: Speedy
Date: September 20, 2022 06:52PM
I hope Pres. Obama visits him in prison to tell Pres. Trump about all the boxes of classified material he secreted out of the White House including his Kenyan birth certificate.

Personally I’m enjoying the incredibly slow perp walk and watching him squirm, just so it gets done before 2024.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: September 20, 2022 06:57PM
People with narcissist issues do tend to have emotional outbursts when they aren't treated as desired.



In tha 360. MRF User Map
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: Tiangou
Date: September 20, 2022 07:12PM
Quote
PeterB
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as President, I'm not sure he had a right to have them in his possession -- classified records being the property of the government, NOT of the President. Did he have a right to access them? Yes, but that's not the same as their being in his possession or his property. (I feel like this is an important distinction to make, because if they never belonged to him in the first place, that even further proves that he had no right to take them with him after he left office.)

According to the classification of some of the documents, they aren't even meant to be accessed outside of a faraday-cage-airgapped-Sensitive-Compartmented-Information-Facility.



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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: $tevie
Date: September 20, 2022 07:24PM

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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: hal
Date: September 20, 2022 07:26PM
stolen from twitter:

it's great to be Tish James these days because you can get the national media on edge for what eventually turns out to be like "a guy from Brooklyn was trafficking endangered snails. we got him."

Quote
$tevie

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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: $tevie
Date: September 20, 2022 07:34PM
Do not harsh my mellow, hal.



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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: vision63
Date: September 20, 2022 08:18PM
Quote
$tevie
Do not harsh my mellow, hal.

I have her working on taking down his empire.
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: PeterB
Date: September 20, 2022 08:42PM
Quote
RgrF
Quote
PeterB
Quote
cbelt3
Because the FBI and DOJ are being very very very careful. That's how they roll... they make their cases one piece of paper at a time. So there is no chance of any loophole.

This is the only answer that makes ANY sense to me. If this guy were anyone other than who he is (or more precisely, who he USED to be), he would have been long since prosecuted and locked up by now.

That and the fact he persuaded over 70 million people to vote for him, people wont want to think they were fooled and don't easily admit to that level of mistake.

As others have pointed out, they need an ironclad case, one that can be sold to the public before they indict. This close to election any move they make is fraught with danger.

I feel like that's exactly the point, folks need to have the information presented to them before the next election, in order to make informed decisions about whom they vote for. Whether they choose to pay heed or dismiss the information, at least they can't claim that they didn't know about it. The prosecutors shouldn't have to convince the public of anything though: a crime is a crime, and as Garland has said, nobody is above the law. And yes, it's close to an election, but not the Presidential election, and one can make an argument that you'll always be close to some election.

As for the 70 million, SOME of them (a definite "some") have recognized their mistake since, but yes, it is human nature not to want to own up to one's errors or admit that they were taken. That is going to take a fair bit of time... it's worth remembering that this is nothing new:

[www.politico.com]
[millercenter.org]

Edit: and on the subject of the 70 million, time to take a little trip down memory lane:

[www.youtube.com]
[www.youtube.com]




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2022 09:24PM by PeterB.
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: vision63
Date: September 20, 2022 09:13PM
Quote
PeterB
Quote
RgrF
Quote
PeterB
Quote
cbelt3
Because the FBI and DOJ are being very very very careful. That's how they roll... they make their cases one piece of paper at a time. So there is no chance of any loophole.

This is the only answer that makes ANY sense to me. If this guy were anyone other than who he is (or more precisely, who he USED to be), he would have been long since prosecuted and locked up by now.

That and the fact he persuaded over 70 million people to vote for him, people wont want to think they were fooled and don't easily admit to that level of mistake.

As others have pointed out, they need an ironclad case, one that can be sold to the public before they indict. This close to election any move they make is fraught with danger.

I feel like that's exactly the point, folks need to have the information presented to them before the next election, in order to make informed decisions about whom they vote for. Whether they choose to pay heed or dismiss the information, at least they can't claim that they didn't know about it. The prosecutors shouldn't have to convince the public of anything though: a crime is a crime, and as Garland has said, nobody is above the law. And yes, it's close to an election, but not the Presidential election, and one can make an argument that you'll always be close to some election.

As for the 70 million, SOME of them (a definite "some") have recognized their mistake since, but yes, it is human nature not to want to own up to one's errors or admit that they were taken. That is going to take a fair bit of time... it's worth remembering that this is nothing new:

[www.politico.com]
[millercenter.org]

The Attorney General (theoretically) cannot make their moves political. They're also not going to leave potentially serious charges unaddressed while they rush their prosecution. That's just how it is. This guy isn't Bill Barr.
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: September 20, 2022 09:44PM


I won't get to see this "live" as I'll be en route to and getting my bivalent vaccination.

I'll try to check it out when getting my usual post-vax Double Double and Chonklet shake.






I am that Masked Man.

All you can do, is all you can do.

There’s trouble — it's time to play the sound of my people.

Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

I've been to the edge of the map, and there be monsters.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody counts or nobody counts.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2022 09:46PM by RAMd®d.
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: vision63
Date: September 20, 2022 09:59PM
Quote
RAMd®d


I won't get to see this "live" as I'll be en route to and getting my bivalent vaccination.

I'll try to check it out when getting my usual post-vax Double Double and Chonklet shake.

Seen leaving Mar a Lago.

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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: September 20, 2022 10:12PM
POMTL!






I am that Masked Man.

All you can do, is all you can do.

There’s trouble — it's time to play the sound of my people.

Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

I've been to the edge of the map, and there be monsters.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody counts or nobody counts.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: Ca Bob
Date: September 20, 2022 10:18PM
Whether Donald Trump as president had a right to possess top secret documents, as opposed to having the right to read them? I'm not sure there is a distinction in terms of him being allowed to ask for them and to read them. The question would be whether his immediate possession and access also implied his right to put them in a carton and have them shipped out of the White House, knowing that within days he would no longer have the right to possess them. I think Trump is not very bright and perhaps even a bit confused at this point in his life, but mostly I presume that he is just incredibly arrogant and chooses to ignore every question of this sort which is brought to his attention.
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: PeterB
Date: September 20, 2022 11:38PM
Quote
Ca Bob
Whether Donald Trump as president had a right to possess top secret documents, as opposed to having the right to read them? I'm not sure there is a distinction in terms of him being allowed to ask for them and to read them. The question would be whether his immediate possession and access also implied his right to put them in a carton and have them shipped out of the White House, knowing that within days he would no longer have the right to possess them. I think Trump is not very bright and perhaps even a bit confused at this point in his life, but mostly I presume that he is just incredibly arrogant and chooses to ignore every question of this sort which is brought to his attention.

The point I was trying to make is that any President does not "own" the documents, therefore has no right to take the documents with. The right to ask for them and read them, yes, but not to possess... and yes, there's a distinction. To me, the difference is like renting versus buying... if you don't own a house, you have no right to take the contents with you when you move. I agree that Trumpy is not bright, but I think this has much less to do with it than the fact that he simply believes the rules don't apply to him.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: RgrF
Date: September 21, 2022 12:35AM
...he simply believes the rules don't apply to him.

He's been proven correct about that for decades, that will hopefully come to an end this decade.
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: vision63
Date: September 21, 2022 12:44AM
Quote
RgrF
...he simply believes the rules don't apply to him.

He's been proven correct about that for decades, that will hopefully come to an end this decade.

Yessir.
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: September 21, 2022 05:45AM
At some point the defense will morph to

"I didn't pack the boxes, the White House staff packed them, I never looked in those boxes and had no idea what was in them. The earlier ones were turned over as soon as they were found, I had no idea there were more. We don't even know if there were more or if Biden's FBI thugs planted them during the search. This was entirely a frame-up done by the White House staff at the direction of the deep state liberals."



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: Tiangou
Date: September 21, 2022 06:02AM
Quote
Ombligo
At some point the defense will morph to

"I didn't pack the boxes, the White House staff packed them, I never looked in those boxes and had no idea what was in them. The earlier ones were turned over as soon as they were found, I had no idea there were more. We don't even know if there were more or if Biden's FBI thugs planted them during the search. This was entirely a frame-up done by the White House staff at the direction of the deep state liberals."

...And then they'll ask him to explain the classified documents that they found in his desk drawer.



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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: PeterB
Date: September 21, 2022 07:09AM
Quote
Tiangou
Quote
Ombligo
At some point the defense will morph to

"I didn't pack the boxes, the White House staff packed them, I never looked in those boxes and had no idea what was in them. The earlier ones were turned over as soon as they were found, I had no idea there were more. We don't even know if there were more or if Biden's FBI thugs planted them during the search. This was entirely a frame-up done by the White House staff at the direction of the deep state liberals."

...And then they'll ask him to explain the classified documents that they found in his desk drawer.

... planted by the FBI.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Answer me this
Posted by: Tiangou
Date: September 21, 2022 04:34PM
Quote
PeterB
Quote
Tiangou
Quote
Ombligo
At some point the defense will morph to

"I didn't pack the boxes, the White House staff packed them, I never looked in those boxes and had no idea what was in them. The earlier ones were turned over as soon as they were found, I had no idea there were more. We don't even know if there were more or if Biden's FBI thugs planted them during the search. This was entirely a frame-up done by the White House staff at the direction of the deep state liberals."

...And then they'll ask him to explain the classified documents that they found in his desk drawer.

... planted by the FBI.

...While his lawyers observed and while they worked in front of cameras so that he could see the whole thing in real-time.



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