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Minority rights in Ukraine
Posted by: gadje
Date: September 24, 2022 04:17PM
I am surprised that some people, including some close relatives, refuse to take firm stance again the Russian invasion in Ukraine and always respond that Ukraine violated minority rights and indeed Russian claims have some merits.

I started looking into this and I came across a web page from Embassy of Hungary Washington that has a little bit of background. Guess what, if this is true, it all started in 2014 when Russia invaded and annexed Crimea.

Of course, I will do more research, I am sure the story is not quite as black and white ad some would like us to believe.

[washington.mfa.gov.hu]
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Re: Minority rights in Ukraine
Posted by: hal
Date: September 24, 2022 04:43PM
why on earth are you pointing to a Hungarian web page to discuss 'minority rights' in Ukraine?
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Re: Minority rights in Ukraine
Posted by: Tiangou
Date: September 24, 2022 05:20PM
Oh! Putin's most slavishly adoring ally has a story that justifies Putin's crimes against Ukraine.

Do tell!!

...

Some of this was actually in the news when Crimea was invaded. But it was characterized a bit differently.

For example, Russia protested the teaching of the Ukrainian language in Ukrainian schools as discriminatory against Russians. It was reported properly as propaganda and part of an Internet disinformation campaign.

Here's the State Department's response to accusations of abuse by Ukraine. (Not responding to the accusations from the Hungarian gov't, but to the Russians. Hungary's BS isn't so loud as Russia's BS, so there's less impulse to respond to it.):

[www.state.gov]

FACT: There are no credible reports of any ethnic Russians or Russian speakers being under threat from the Ukrainian government. There are, however, credible reports that in Russia-occupied Crimea and in the Donbas, Ukrainians face suppression of their culture and national identity and live in an environment of severe repression and fear. In Crimea, Russia forces Ukrainians to assume Russian citizenship or lose their property, their access to healthcare, and their jobs. Those who peacefully express opposition to Russia’s occupation or control face imprisonment on baseless grounds, police raids on their homes, officially sanctioned discrimination, and in some cases torture and other abuses. Religious and ethnic minorities are investigated and prosecuted as “extremists” and “terrorists.”







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2022 05:30PM by Tiangou.
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Re: Minority rights in Ukraine
Posted by: gadje
Date: September 24, 2022 06:17PM
Quote
hal
why on earth are you pointing to a Hungarian web page to discuss 'minority rights' in Ukraine?

i wanted to understand where these poeple get their info.

Even that Putin's ally says things were more or less OK before Putin invaded Ukraine in 2014. So if these reports are true, one can blame Putin.
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Re: Minority rights in Ukraine
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: September 24, 2022 06:25PM
I did not read this as gadje believed those lies, simply that he found some source that generated the lies.
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Re: Minority rights in Ukraine
Posted by: gadje
Date: September 24, 2022 06:35PM
Quote
mrbigstuff
I did not read this as gadje believed those lies, simply that he found some source that generated the lies.

Thank you.

I do not believe those lies at all, and I am a big supporter (moral and $$$) of Ukraine and anything against Putin in General.
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Re: Minority rights in Ukraine
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: September 24, 2022 10:37PM
There is a deep infiltration of Russian propaganda into this country including their near ownership of the Republican Party and the NRA. Assume anything critical of Ukraine is propaganda.

No nation is perfect. But Ukraine is the victim of N illegal war.
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Re: Minority rights in Ukraine
Posted by: kj
Date: September 26, 2022 11:01AM
I have yet to talk to any actual person who is pro-Russia, as far as the invasion of Ukraine. I think the number of people who support the invasion are vanishingly small.

edit: I looked it up, and it looks like about 6% of US believes Russia is justified. Considering how little agreement there is in the US, about anything, that's pretty amazing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2022 11:05AM by kj.
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Re: Minority rights in Ukraine
Posted by: mattkime
Date: September 26, 2022 11:06AM
Quote
kj
I looked it up, and it looks like about 6% of US believes Russia is justified. Considering how little agreement there is in the US, about anything, that's pretty amazing.

More than 1 in 20? I'd love to hear the justification...



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Re: Minority rights in Ukraine
Posted by: kj
Date: September 26, 2022 11:12AM
Dude, 27% of the US doubts NASA put astronauts on the moon. 6% is ridiculous unanimity.
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Re: Minority rights in Ukraine
Posted by: dk62
Date: September 27, 2022 09:59AM
Well, nothing is ever black and white, but news media like to make it so in order to make it easier for their consumers. This also frequently helps the government in selling the foreign policy, which is frequently driven by other considerations, either geopolitical or ex-pat lobbying. I had colleagues with immediate family members in Donbas region and yes, the corrupt pro-Russian government was replaced by a corrupt pro-Western one that had a strong nationalist bend. At that point, there were a number of laws enacted that forbade use of Russian language even in stores owned by ethnic Russians. However, there is no record of those laws actually being enforced. In the meantime, the generally disappointed populace ended up electing a comedian for president who generally refused to govern and had 25% approval rating at the beginning of Russian invasion. This led Russians to believe that it would be easy to roll over Ukraine. Amazingly, the generally divided populace came together and the president stepped up.

Annexation of Crimea and the civil war in Donbas did give rise to some neo-Nazi Ukrainian militias and there was (and still is) bombardment of civilian Donbas population by Ukrainian forces that we do not hear about. It pales in comparison to what the Russians are doing, but it has existed since 2014. Also, Ukraine's insistence of joining NATO was dumb and an obvious triggering point, but NATO's reluctance to move forward with it was prudent and denied Putin an obvious reason for invasion.

So, I feel the invasion is never justified, but the situation was not as purely black and white as frequently portrayed. As we are turning the contrast up on one side, so are pro-Russian media doing it on another, and there are kernels of truth that they can amplify. And thus there are people who believe that, particularly when those truths are denied by those holding the opposing views. But just to make it clear - I think that what Russians are doing is reprehensible and horrible.
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Re: Minority rights in Ukraine
Posted by: Acer
Date: September 27, 2022 10:35AM
Membership in NATO could have been a good thing for Russians in Ukraine, as it could pressure on the Ukraine government to reduce whatever harassment was taking place.
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Re: Minority rights in Ukraine
Posted by: dk62
Date: September 27, 2022 10:44AM
Quote
Acer
Membership in NATO could have been a good thing for Russians in Ukraine, as it could pressure on the Ukraine government to reduce whatever harassment was taking place.

I always thought that was more EU thing than NATO priority. I may be wrong.
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Re: Minority rights in Ukraine
Posted by: Acer
Date: September 27, 2022 10:58AM
Quote
dk62
Quote
Acer
Membership in NATO could have been a good thing for Russians in Ukraine, as it could pressure on the Ukraine government to reduce whatever harassment was taking place.

I always thought that was more EU thing than NATO priority. I may be wrong.

It has different goals, that's for sure. But having active Nazi militia in your country is a bad look for NATO and I'm sure they'd like to see that cleaned up.
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Re: Minority rights in Ukraine
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: September 27, 2022 01:28PM
Quote
dk62
Well, nothing is ever black and white, but news media like to make it so in order to make it easier for their consumers. This also frequently helps the government in selling the foreign policy, which is frequently driven by other considerations, either geopolitical or ex-pat lobbying. I had colleagues with immediate family members in Donbas region and yes, the corrupt pro-Russian government was replaced by a corrupt pro-Western one that had a strong nationalist bend. At that point, there were a number of laws enacted that forbade use of Russian language even in stores owned by ethnic Russians. However, there is no record of those laws actually being enforced. In the meantime, the generally disappointed populace ended up electing a comedian for president who generally refused to govern and had 25% approval rating at the beginning of Russian invasion. This led Russians to believe that it would be easy to roll over Ukraine. Amazingly, the generally divided populace came together and the president stepped up.

Annexation of Crimea and the civil war in Donbas did give rise to some neo-Nazi Ukrainian militias and there was (and still is) bombardment of civilian Donbas population by Ukrainian forces that we do not hear about. It pales in comparison to what the Russians are doing, but it has existed since 2014. Also, Ukraine's insistence of joining NATO was dumb and an obvious triggering point, but NATO's reluctance to move forward with it was prudent and denied Putin an obvious reason for invasion.

So, I feel the invasion is never justified, but the situation was not as purely black and white as frequently portrayed. As we are turning the contrast up on one side, so are pro-Russian media doing it on another, and there are kernels of truth that they can amplify. And thus there are people who believe that, particularly when those truths are denied by those holding the opposing views. But just to make it clear - I think that what Russians are doing is reprehensible and horrible.

good mini-summary. what I recall from my university days of IR classes is that it's never so easy to judge what the geopolitical considerations were on the surface (and there are legions of people in the state department doing research that we'll never hear about).
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