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Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: pdq
Date: September 27, 2022 08:35AM
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CNN and Reuters:
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Multiple sources are saying it looks like sabotage.
As noted above, the pipelines affected were not sending gas to Europe now anyway. Buuut,
Nice pipeline you’ve got there. ‘d be a shame if something happened to it.
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Sweden’s Maritime Authority issued a warning about two leaks in the Nord Stream 1 pipeline, shortly after a leak on the nearby Nord Stream 2 pipeline was discovered that had prompted Denmark to restrict shipping in a five nautical mile radius.
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Neither pipeline was pumping gas to Europe at the time the leaks were found, amid the dispute over the war in Ukraine, but the incidents will scupper any remaining expectations that Europe could receive gas via Nord Stream 1 before winter.
“The destruction that occurred on the same day simultaneously on three strings of the offshore gas pipelines of the Nord Stream system is unprecedented,” said network operator Nord Stream AG.
… Gazprom, the Kremlin-controlled company with a monopoly on Russian gas exports by pipeline, declined comment.
Russia slashed gas supplies to Europe via Nord Stream 1 before suspending flows altogether in August, blaming Western sanctions for causing technical difficulties. European politicians say that was a pretext to stop supplying gas.
Multiple sources are saying it looks like sabotage.
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A second European source, when asked if there was specific intelligence indicating sabotage, said: "Not specific yet, but it seems this pressure failure can only happen when a pipe is completely cut. Which pretty much says it all."
As noted above, the pipelines affected were not sending gas to Europe now anyway. Buuut,
Quote
The leaks happened just before the ceremonial launch on Tuesday of the Baltic Pipe carrying gas from Norway to Poland, a centrepiece of Warsaw's efforts to diversify from Russian supplies.
Nice pipeline you’ve got there. ‘d be a shame if something happened to it.
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: gadje
Date: September 27, 2022 01:02PM
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I am not sure how I feel about this.
One one hand, more pollution, more supply issues for Europe.
On the other hand, anything to punish Putin, go for it.
I am curios how soon they fix this. And whoever did this, they knew what they were doing. You can't just blow up a pipe hundreds of feet under the sea level, unless you know how to locate it and detonate the bomb or whatever they used.
One one hand, more pollution, more supply issues for Europe.
On the other hand, anything to punish Putin, go for it.
I am curios how soon they fix this. And whoever did this, they knew what they were doing. You can't just blow up a pipe hundreds of feet under the sea level, unless you know how to locate it and detonate the bomb or whatever they used.
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: September 27, 2022 01:32PM
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: pdq
Date: September 27, 2022 01:46PM
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I think Putin did it. That's why I posted it, frankly.
I think he's saying "Not only will you not get Russian gas from this pipeline today, you aren't getting it this winter either. Also, if we're willing to cut our own pipeline to make a point, what makes you think we wouldn't/can't cut the new pipeline from Norway to Poland?"
He's doubling down, just like TFG likes to.
I think he's saying "Not only will you not get Russian gas from this pipeline today, you aren't getting it this winter either. Also, if we're willing to cut our own pipeline to make a point, what makes you think we wouldn't/can't cut the new pipeline from Norway to Poland?"
He's doubling down, just like TFG likes to.
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: mattkime
Date: September 27, 2022 01:46PM
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: Acer
Date: September 27, 2022 01:53PM
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: September 27, 2022 02:27PM
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Sweden and Denmark say Nord Stream pipeline blasts were deliberate attacks
[www.politico.eu]
[www.politico.eu]
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: September 27, 2022 02:38PM
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I can’t imagine Putin would sabotage his own expensive infrastructure that could potentially bring him some much needed revenue. Maybe someone in Russia is going rogue? The only thing is, it seems to me you’d have to have state level capabilities to pull this off. Perhaps the Russian military?
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: mattkime
Date: September 27, 2022 03:38PM
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Quote
Carnos Jax
I can’t imagine Putin would sabotage his own expensive infrastructure that could potentially bring him some much needed revenue. Maybe someone in Russia is going rogue? The only thing is, it seems to me you’d have to have state level capabilities to pull this off. Perhaps the Russian military?
India and China have sufficient demand.
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: Diana
Date: September 27, 2022 03:43PM
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He would do this to put pressure on the EU: quit with the aid to Ukraine and we’ll repair the pipeline. Oh, you’re cold? Quit faster. Those countries that were more supportive of Russia will also suffer, and they will voice their displeasure as well towards the recalcitrant nations in the EU to add to the pressure. Pootie thinks he has them by the short hairs and wants to remind them, especially as winter closes in.
Just my 2cents.
Just my 2cents.
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: September 27, 2022 04:23PM
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Quote
mattkime
Quote
Carnos Jax
I can’t imagine Putin would sabotage his own expensive infrastructure that could potentially bring him some much needed revenue. Maybe someone in Russia is going rogue? The only thing is, it seems to me you’d have to have state level capabilities to pull this off. Perhaps the Russian military?
India and China have sufficient demand.
Even if so, you would want to keep your options open (especially considering it’d be expensive and time consuming to repair a pipeline). I mean, it was already turned off, so why the added step of blowing it up? Makes no sense.
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: gadje
Date: September 27, 2022 04:36PM
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Quote
Diana
He would do this to put pressure on the EU: quit with the aid to Ukraine and we’ll repair the pipeline. Oh, you’re cold? Quit faster. Those countries that were more supportive of Russia will also suffer, and they will voice their displeasure as well towards the recalcitrant nations in the EU to add to the pressure. Pootie thinks he has them by the short hairs and wants to remind them, especially as winter closes in.
Just my 2cents.
He didn't have to blow the pipes up to make his point. All he had to do was close the valves.
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: Diana
Date: September 27, 2022 04:50PM
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Quote
gadje
Quote
Diana
He would do this to put pressure on the EU: quit with the aid to Ukraine and we’ll repair the pipeline. Oh, you’re cold? Quit faster. Those countries that were more supportive of Russia will also suffer, and they will voice their displeasure as well towards the recalcitrant nations in the EU to add to the pressure. Pootie thinks he has them by the short hairs and wants to remind them, especially as winter closes in.
Just my 2cents.
He didn't have to blow the pipes up to make his point. All he had to do was close the valves.
He essentially shut the gas off and it had little effect. Turn a valve maybe a few days later the gas is back. Another month or two of fighting, another month or two of aiding Ukraine or even oversupplying them. Blow it up? Takes a month or two to fix it, after the decision is made and after aid stops. In another month it may be difficult or nearly impossible to fix it, depending on the seas at that time of year. In another month a lot of people are going to be very unhappy. And not just in Russia.
Is this rational? Oh hell no. Is it within the realm of possibility? Yes.
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: September 27, 2022 05:18PM
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: Diana
Date: September 27, 2022 05:33PM
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: gadje
Date: September 27, 2022 05:34PM
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: September 27, 2022 05:35PM
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: September 27, 2022 06:43PM
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: September 28, 2022 12:31AM
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The thought just occurred to me, could it be Ukraine that sabotaged those pipelines? Maybe it’s because it’s late at night and so I’m not able to fully think it through, but they seem to be the only one for whom it would be advantageous. By sabotaging the pipeline, there would be no gas this winter, therefore people in Europe hold not pressure their governments to appease the Russians so as to let the gas flow again.
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: September 28, 2022 12:40AM
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But then again, the Ukrainians are smart enough to know that the US and its allies will be able to figure out who did it, and they would not want to be caught doing something like that as a result?
These pipelines are basically owned by Russia. It would be fair game for Ukraine to hit them as a result. However it may not be wise for them to do so as it would affect Western sympathies for Ukraine negatively.
These pipelines are basically owned by Russia. It would be fair game for Ukraine to hit them as a result. However it may not be wise for them to do so as it would affect Western sympathies for Ukraine negatively.
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: September 28, 2022 12:56AM
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It could also be in the United States interest as well as to sabotage the pipeline. So I guess to summit up, it’s not in Russia or Europe’s interest, but it is in the United States in Ukraine‘s interest (for different reasons). But as they have rational leaders, I conclude neither of them did it. I think in the end my best guess would be that Putin has gone mad (in which case that does not bode well for his access to nuclear weapons) and that he may have with the cooperation of certain sympathetic elements in the Russian military, sabotaged their own pipelines in the not so smart context of threatening other pipelines (as most of y’all have suggested). I guess Putin is really going mad?!
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: Janit
Date: September 28, 2022 06:56AM
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Quote
Carnos Jax
It could also be in the United States interest as well as to sabotage the pipeline. So I guess to summit up, it’s not in Russia or Europe’s interest, but it is in the United States in Ukraine‘s interest (for different reasons). But as they have rational leaders, I conclude neither of them did it. I think in the end my best guess would be that Putin has gone mad (in which case that does not bode well for his access to nuclear weapons) and that he may have with the cooperation of certain sympathetic elements in the Russian military, sabotaged their own pipelines in the not so smart context of threatening other pipelines (as most of y’all have suggested). I guess Putin is really going mad?!
I wouldn't put it past Putin to do this.
I have learned a new phrase today that has become popular in Russia during the last few years: "bombing Voronezh." It is loosely equivalent to "cutting off your nose to spite your face."
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: pdq
Date: September 28, 2022 08:48AM
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The Swedes are now saying that their seismic stations recorded underwater explosions when the pressure in the 2 lines suddenly dropped.
Also, it was noted that the damage occurred just outside the territorial waters of Denmark, a NATO country.
It was Putin. Nothing else makes any sense (at least to me).
Also, it was noted that the damage occurred just outside the territorial waters of Denmark, a NATO country.
It was Putin. Nothing else makes any sense (at least to me).
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: gadje
Date: September 28, 2022 09:18AM
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: September 28, 2022 12:35PM
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: Acer
Date: September 28, 2022 12:59PM
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I have not taken the time to pursue this, but someone on the interwebs said this was "technical gas" we see leaking. The line is always pressurized even when not carrying product. The technical gas protects it from internal corrosion and saltwater intrusion. If so, at least they aren't pumping more global warming methane into the air.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2022 01:00PM by Acer.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2022 01:00PM by Acer.
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: September 28, 2022 12:59PM
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: Acer
Date: September 28, 2022 01:01PM
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: dk62
Date: September 28, 2022 02:23PM
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Quote
Carnos Jax
But then again, the Ukrainians are smart enough to know that the US and its allies will be able to figure out who did it, and they would not want to be caught doing something like that as a result?
These pipelines are basically owned by Russia. It would be fair game for Ukraine to hit them as a result. However it may not be wise for them to do so as it would affect Western sympathies for Ukraine negatively.
I do not think this is a strong enough argument - powers have been known to sweep under the carpet misbehavior of their proteges if that would allow them to continue the policies they want to pursue. Having said that, I doubt it was Ukraine as it would be logistically difficult considering the geography. Interestingly, Poland just got a pipeline connecting it to Norway. They are very strong supporters of Ukraine and were the first ones to be cut off from Russian supply. Just another possibility. The Russians are still the most likely culprit, but it is really not clear how that would be beneficial to them.
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: September 28, 2022 05:01PM
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: September 28, 2022 06:36PM
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First, let me put my tinfoil hat on.
Perhaps something was meant to explode all the way at the German end of the pipe. then Putin could claim it was sabotaged by the Germans. But the ACME alarm clock trigger ran fast.
“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld
"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias
The German word for contraceptive is “Schwangerschaftsverhütungsmittel”. By the time you finished saying that, it’s too late
Perhaps something was meant to explode all the way at the German end of the pipe. then Putin could claim it was sabotaged by the Germans. But the ACME alarm clock trigger ran fast.
“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld
"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias
The German word for contraceptive is “Schwangerschaftsverhütungsmittel”. By the time you finished saying that, it’s too late
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: RgrF
Date: September 29, 2022 05:51AM
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: Speedy
Date: September 29, 2022 03:29PM
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Re: Yikes. The two undersea gas pipelines between Russia and Europe have suddenly developed severe leaks
Posted by: JoeH
Date: September 29, 2022 04:03PM
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Quote
Speedy
If only some agency in our government could take photos/videos from some high elevation and had some way to record those images.
Well if the skies were clear enough they may just have those images to roll at some point. But the Russians also know about those satellites and can choose when to do things so they won't be observable.
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