WTF???

WTF is wrong with Police in America? After countless cases of police officers shooting and killing innocent people, why are so many cops pulling the trigger so fast?

[www.cnn.com]

Police in America, other than being poorly trained, are afraid. No other country has guns on the street like we have guns on the street. Plus in this case the LEO held a grudge.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2022 08:24PM by RgrF.

I have mentioned the problem of inadequate training multiple times.

PBS Frontline/Salt Lake Trib episode:
FRONTLINE - Shots Fired - Season 2021 Episode 21
https: //www.pbs.org/video/shots-fired-0krfkt/

Because training can be as short as 90 days, there is an attempt to make sure they survive the first year. Many police academy courses on traffic stops, domestic disputes, etc., rely on worst case scenario interactions. This primes them for going into a fight or flight rage for things as simple as people trying to assert First, Fourth, or Fifth Amendments.

I think police should need a 2 year degree, or a 5 year apprenticeship, and pass written tests to get a "Qualified Immunity" certificate (that can easily be taken away). There also needs to be a national registry for bad cops so they can't just bounce between departments when they were allowed to quit instead of getting fired. Police unions and fraternal orgs are another problem, especially when they sue to get bad cops rehired.

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In tha 360. MRF User Map



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2022 09:07PM by Filliam H. Muffman.

He was a bad aim, too.

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Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.

Fortunately, he does. Otherwise the kid would be dead.

I still want to know why he approached the kid.

Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
I have mentioned the problem of inadequate training multiple times.

PBS Frontline/Salt Lake Trib episode:
FRONTLINE - Shots Fired - Season 2021 Episode 21
https: //www.pbs.org/video/shots-fired-0krfkt/

Because training can be as short as 90 days, there is an attempt to make sure they survive the first year. Many police academy courses on traffic stops, domestic disputes, etc., rely on worst case scenario interactions. This primes them for going into a fight or flight rage for things as simple as people trying to assert First, Fourth, or Fifth Amendments.

I think police should need a 2 year degree, or a 5 year apprenticeship, and pass written tests to get a "Qualified Immunity" certificate (that can easily be taken away). There also needs to be a national registry for bad cops so they can't just bounce between departments when they were allowed to quit instead of getting fired. Police unions and fraternal orgs are another problem, especially when they sue to get bad cops rehired.

I think this is definitely a significant part of the problem.

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e pluribus unum

Why don’t the shoot to disable rather than kill?

Quote
samintx
Why don’t the shoot to disable rather than kill?

That is part of the minimal amount of training. Officers do not get serious marksmanship training, they are taught to shoot for center of body mass which is shooting for a kill if they actually hit that mark.

Quote
samintx
Why don’t the shoot to disable rather than kill?

A legitimate question, but from every experienced source I’ve heard on the subject, it’s just not something that can reasonably be expected in a real world confrontational situation, despite what is sometimes shown in fiction.

In (what should be) a shooting situation — imminent threat of great bodily harm or death of another — hitting a moving target or expecting a ‘wounding’ shot to reliably end the threat (due to a variety of factors ranging from adrenaline to drugs to simple physical capacity of the individual) is overwhelmingly too risky of a proposition.

From the number of sources and the variety of fields and of opinions on the use of deadly force I’ve heard, including those urging restraint in its use, I’m led to believe ‘shooting to wound’ is not a real world, applicable solution.

Much better training in deescalation and in the use of force, and the use, when possible, of less than lethal force are the approaches I’ve most often heard suggested.

It should also be said, that the screening of potential officers may well be another area in need of considerable examination. The recent case in Alameda county, where theCounty Sheriff's Office has stripped 47 deputies — 10% of the force – of their guns and arrest powers after an internal audit revealed they were wrongfully hired after they scored below passing grades on psychological exams.

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A priest, a rabbit and a minister walk into a bar.
The bartender asks the rabbit "what'll ya have?"
The rabbit says "I dunno. I'm only here because of Autocorrect.


National Suicide Prevention Lifeline
As of July 16, 2022, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is now available by simply dialing 988. The previous number, 1-800-273-8255, will remain active.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2022 09:38AM by Blankity Blank.

Quote
gadje
I still want to know why he approached the kid.

The kid had eluded him in a chase earlier.

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Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.

Quote
Speedy

Quote
gadje
I still want to know why he approached the kid.

The kid had eluded him in a chase earlier.

Has that been confirmed? I wasn’t sure from the story I read. That one only stated that on the bodycam footage the officer is heard saying the car “fled” from him “the other day.” when he attempted a stop because the registered license plate did not match the actual vehicle.

But they didn’t say whether or not it’s been confirmed the car the kid was in was in fact the same vehicle.

---

A priest, a rabbit and a minister walk into a bar.
The bartender asks the rabbit "what'll ya have?"
The rabbit says "I dunno. I'm only here because of Autocorrect.


National Suicide Prevention Lifeline
As of July 16, 2022, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is now available by simply dialing 988. The previous number, 1-800-273-8255, will remain active.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

The story leading up to the confrontation isn't as cut and dry as it should be.

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Texas

OMG

And the soon-to-be-rich perp was still too stupid to give it up.

Quote
Steve G.

OMG

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Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2022 03:50PM by Speedy.

From the number of sources and the variety of fields and of opinions on the use of deadly force I’ve heard, including those urging restraint in its use, I’m led to believe ‘shooting to wound’ is not a real world, applicable solution.


This and every other point in BB's post is spot on.

The use of lethal force is appropriate only when the threat of death or great bodily harm is imminent, in the defense of one's self or another.

Stopping that threat is the purpose of the use of deadly force, and any other less lethal method is inappropriate as it will likely not stop the threat.

When that happens someone get hurt or killed, when it shouldn't have happened.

So shooting to wound when someone's life is at risk is inappropriate, as is 'shooting out tires', another TV trope.

Police academies do not teach 'shoot to kill'.

That is misinformation spread by stupid, ignorant, or cop-hating people, or all of the preceding.

Shooting center of mass, the middle of the torso, has shown to be the most reliable way to stop an assailant, in a life threatening situation.

Whether the assailant lives or dies is not a decision for the cop to make.

Yes, shooting center mass increases the chance of death, but it also increases the chance of stopping an assailant, and that is the priority.

The fight isn't over until the suspect is down, and the cop involved has to make that determination.


So shooting to wound the driver would not be appropriate.

And from what I saw in the video, shooting wasn't appropriate at all.

I didn't see what the cop saw, that might have justified deadly force – may there was something, maybe there was nothing.

He might have thought the kid reach for the gearshift was reaching for a weapon, but without seeing one, deadly force isn't justified, at least in my view, and so far the news reports are saying the kid was unarmed.

Even if the initial shots could be justified, his shooting at a fleeing vehicle was most likely out of policy, at best.

The dispatcher talks way to fast and has a slight mumble, but it sounds like he asked the cop if he wanted responding units 'rolling code' which means emergency lights or lights and siren, depending on state law and department policy.

The cop should have waited, and one of the units could box the car in and avoid the kid fleeing and a pursuit.

So many things were wrong, and he'll probably be looking at prison, without some actual evidence in his favor.



But they didn’t say whether or not it’s been confirmed the car the kid was in was in fact the same vehicle.


I haven't seen any confirmation either.

While not make any conclusions on that issue, it really seems unlikely that there was nothing 'below board' going on, or he wouldn't have fled.

The cop provided the plate to Radio, and some information about the vehicle evading, where it was the one or he just thought it might be, I didn't try to discern.

But based on that info, Radio should have run the plate to see if it came back to the type of car the kid was driving.

There's an old school phrase of hot car, cold plate, and if a crook is smart, they'll steal a plate from the same year make/model of the vehicle they stole.

The cop should have had that information before deciding to approach.


And my mantra on training: Citizens don't want to pay for it, so sometimes they don't get what they don't pay for.

If people want more, better training, it has to be paid for.

Psych screening needs to improve.

And it shouldn't come as a surprise that not a lot of people want to be cops, because when one cop makes a mistake, like racists people hate all cops.

I love the line some of them use 'Anybody who wants to be a cop probably shouldn't be!'

ACSO's position was avoidable, and Ahern's decision to hire D's was unconscionable.

Absolutely and because of his position and decision as Sheriff, ACSO staff was allowed to dwindle to 240+ deputies shy of what staffing should have been.

Ahern robbed Patrol to fill shortages elsewhere or spent money elsewhere instead of hiring deputies.

Candidates fail selection for any number of reason found in a background check, and a huge one is drug use, failing drug testing — WTF.

The academy is 28 weeks, so with few candidates, and their attrition rate, I doubt staffing is at recommended levels even now.

Everybody wants better cops, but it takes money.

And if the job were easy, all y'all could do it.

---

I am that Masked Man.

All you can do, is all you can do.

There’s trouble — it's time to play the sound of my people.

Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

I've been to the edge of the map, and there be monsters.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody counts or nobody counts.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.

>Yes, shooting center mass increases the chance of death, but it also increases the chance of stopping an assailant, and that is the priority.

Bfft, sorry, I doubt many people care about that distinction.

>And my mantra on training: Citizens don't want to pay for it, so sometimes they don't get what they don't pay for.

As best I can tell, police unions aim to have a large number of police. Greater numbers mean fewer resources (pay and training) to go around.

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Quote
RAMd®d

Everybody wants better cops, but it takes money.

And if the job were easy, all y'all could do it.

Which is, of course, why All Americans should be further encouraged to carry loaded guns!

Quote
RAMd®d

And if the job were easy, all y'all could do it.

Meanwhile, unbeknownst to the humble denizens of this humble universe, in the far off alternate universe of peaceful Trafalgafar, where policing actually is a “side hustle”, performed for tips…

---

A priest, a rabbit and a minister walk into a bar.
The bartender asks the rabbit "what'll ya have?"
The rabbit says "I dunno. I'm only here because of Autocorrect.


National Suicide Prevention Lifeline
As of July 16, 2022, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is now available by simply dialing 988. The previous number, 1-800-273-8255, will remain active.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

Bfft, sorry, I doubt many people care about that distinction.


That takes us back to the Lone Ranger fantasy, and it makes it easier to brand all cops the same.

Nonetheless, it's still part of the job.

---

I am that Masked Man.

All you can do, is all you can do.

There’s trouble — it's time to play the sound of my people.

Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

I've been to the edge of the map, and there be monsters.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody counts or nobody counts.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.

And as long as officers believe they lack the power to change how they’re perceived, they're off the hook for doing anything about it. Why change? They’ll hate you just the same

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And as long as officers believe they lack the power to change how they’re perceived, they're off the hook for doing anything about it. Why change? They’ll hate you just the same


The number of cops who need to change are far outnumber by people who will hate them 'just the same', and I saw how that weighed on everyone.

The rest put on the uniform and went and go to work and do their best to ignore being tarred with the same brush, because that's the job, and there's a duty that's been accepted.

For most of us, that was enough.

But that was then, and then's not now.

---

I am that Masked Man.

All you can do, is all you can do.

There’s trouble — it's time to play the sound of my people.

Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

I've been to the edge of the map, and there be monsters.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody counts or nobody counts.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.

Quote
RAMd®d
The number of cops who need to change are far outnumber by people who will hate them 'just the same', and I saw how that weighed on everyone.

I'm not sure how that aligns with my experience when the department chooses not to enforce laws even with copious complaints. The city council and DOT creates laws and traffic conditions that they refuse to enforce. There was also what appeared to be some pretty open and continuous corruption - at least thats how I read it when a particular locksmith is allowed to break parking rules with a giant sign affixed to a truck in a particularly dense neighborhood.

Are those things the fault of just a few bad officers? Am I a cop hater for questioning the integrity of those who work for an organization that operates like this?

Quote
RgrF
Police in America, other than being poorly trained, are afraid.

Definitely part of the equation...

In the past month:

11 September, 2022 - Colorado police officer shot and killed

12 October, 2022 - 2 officers killed in Connecticut shooting

12 October, 2022 - 3 Philadelphia Police SWAT officers shot

13 October, 2022 - 5 killed, including officer, in N. Carolina shooting


(From one year ago) FBI Releases Statistics for Law Enforcement Officers Assaulted and Killed in the Line of Duty

"...59 police officers were killed in the line of duty from January 1, 2021, to September 30, 2021. This marks a 51 percent increase in the number of police officers killed when compared to the same period last year.

Nationally, 60,105 law enforcement officers were assaulted while performing their duties in 2020. These assaults were reported to the FBI by 9,895 law enforcement agencies. Based on these reports, there were 4,071 more officers assaulted in 2020 than the 56,034 assaults reported in 2019."