Once again in Colorado (which seems to be a hotbed for these)

five dead, 18 wounded, suspect in custody. the shooting took place at a Colorado Springs nightclub. no motive or details were released. The club is said to cater to the Gay community so that undoubtedly played a role.

---

“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias

The German word for contraceptive is “Schwangerschaftsverhütungsmittel”. By the time you finished saying that, it’s too late

Hmm. Just yesterday I read one of those horrible click-bait things that claimed to list the 10 most conservative and 10 most liberal cities. Colorado Springs was on the former list.

^ this is more free-association than anything. Another tragedy.

AP coverage=> [apnews.com]

Goddamn shame! More sacrifices to the @#$%& 2nd Amendment worshippers.

Customers at the club were able to seize and disarm the gunman. I know a few gay gentleman who would have needed be physically stopped from beating that loser gunman's skull in.

---

San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater

I was creeped out in Colorado Springs when I was there 30 years ago. Seemed like every store and restauran counter had Christian literature prominently displayed.

---

One of my brothers spent the best part of a year working a project there some 35 years ago. Coming from New England he was unprepared for the pervasiveness of evangelical culture, loved the countryside and recreation the people not so much. It's home to the USAF Academy, that culture has permeated ranks of it's officer corp for decades.

Quote

Two firearms, including a “long rifle,” were found at Club Q after the Saturday night shooting, said Police Chief Adrian Vasquez.

Can we assume that long rifle = assault rifle?

Wish they would just say it - yes or no.

---

Northern California Coast

Last June, the El Paso County Sheriff’s Office said it responded to a report from Aldrich’s mother indicating he was allegedly threatening to cause harm to her with a homemade bomb, multiple weapons and ammunition.

A statement from the sheriff’s office at the time indicates Aldrich allegedly refused to comply with orders to surrender and was booked on two counts of felony menacing and three counts of first-degree kidnapping, although they did not find any explosive devices.

The Gazette, a Colorado Springs-based newspaper, reported that no formal charges were pursued and the case has since been sealed.

Please don't name the domestic terrorist!

Quote
Steve G.
Last June, the El Paso County Sheriff’s Office said it responded to a report from [TERRORIST]’s mother indicating he was allegedly threatening to cause harm to her with a homemade bomb, multiple weapons and ammunition.

A statement from the sheriff’s office at the time indicates [TERRORIST] allegedly refused to comply with orders to surrender and was booked on two counts of felony menacing and three counts of first-degree kidnapping, although they did not find any explosive devices.

The Gazette, a Colorado Springs-based newspaper, reported that no formal charges were pursued and the case has since been sealed.

---

San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater

Hershel has a solution:

The shooter is well connected, and this is maybe how he escaped justice for last year's crimes, and obtained at least one assault rifle:
Grandpa is a former mayor and recent MAGA member of the California Assembly.

"Heavy has confirmed that Aldrich is the grandson of outgoing Republican State Assemblymember Randy Voepel, the former mayor of Santee, California. Voepel represents the 71st district in the San Diego area. There were calls to expel Voepel from the state Assembly after he made comments comparing the January 6 attacks to the Revolutionary War. Aldrich’s mother, Laura Voepel, has written posts praising Randy Voepel on Facebook and confirming he is her father."

[heavy.com]

A salute to the very brave club patrons who subdued the shooter before he killed even more people.
From the reports it seems they beat the crap out of him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2022 04:12PM by Lemon Drop.

Santee, CA is @#$%&* Klan territory, just ask bfd.

*forgot about the forum nanny



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2022 04:15PM by RgrF.

Quote
RgrF
Santee, CA is @#$%&* Klan territory, just ask bfd.

*forgot about the forum nanny

yep...known locally as "Klantee"; had no idea about the reputation of Colorado Springs...I think I will be avoiding that in future travels

Colorado Springs is home to James Dobson of Focus on the Family infamy, i think he was the preacher who blamed gay Americans for 9/11. Major whackjob.

Forgot about making sense, I can't even figure out what he is saying.

Quote
RgrF
Hershel has a solution:

---

“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias

The German word for contraceptive is “Schwangerschaftsverhütungsmittel”. By the time you finished saying that, it’s too late

Another case of a good guy with a gun stopping a bad guy with a gun:

“COLORADO SPRINGS — Mayor John Suthers of Colorado Springs offered new details late Sunday about the fatal rampage inside Club Q, an L.G.B.T.Q. nightclub in his city, saying it ended when someone acted quickly to grab a handgun from the gunman, then hit him with it, subduing him.

When police burst into the club minutes later, the man who had slugged the gunman was still on top of him, pinning him down, Mr. Suthers said. The shooting had started just a few minutes before midnight on Saturday, when the gunman opened fire with a long rifle, killing at least five people and injuring more than two dozen, the police said.

“It was quite something,” Mr. Suthers said in an interview with The New York Times. “It happened quite quickly. This individual was totally disabled by 12:02. That had a lot to do with the intervention of these patrons.”

It was unclear whether the gunman had fired the handgun, Mr. Suthers said.”

---

Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.

Quote
RgrF
Hershel has a solution:

“I like this stuff. I really get it”

“People are really surprised I understand this stuff”

“Every one of these doctors said, ‘How do you know so much about this?’ Maybe I have a natural ability.”

Quote
Rolando
Please don't name the domestic terrorist!

Quote
Steve G.
Last June, the El Paso County Sheriff’s Office said it responded to a report from [TERRORIST]’s mother indicating he was allegedly threatening to cause harm to her with a homemade bomb, multiple weapons and ammunition….

Trying to hide the name of the perpetrator, beyond it’s questionable constitutional aspects (Do we really want to open the door to anyone being arrested and tried for a crime and kept nameless to the public?), is really only a bone to be thrown to those who want to stick their head in the ground.

People who perpetrate such heinous acts as this are far down their rabbit hole of hate and delusion and fear and anger. Infamy/fame is not what sends them out into the world to spill blood.

And even if we did stupidly start shrouding them in anonymity, the only thing that would happen is the vacuum would be filled with overblown ‘legends’ and speculation crafted by those in their cohorts on the sidelines. Ten burnished twisted fables to fill the gap left by a single true statement of the facts.

---

A priest, a rabbit and a minister walk into a bar.
The bartender asks the rabbit "what'll ya have?"
The rabbit says "I dunno. I'm only here because of Autocorrect.


National Suicide Prevention Lifeline
As of July 16, 2022, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is now available by simply dialing 988. The previous number, 1-800-273-8255, will remain active.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

Quote
Blankity Blank
People who perpetrate such heinous acts as this are far down their rabbit hole of hate and delusion and fear and anger. Infamy/fame is not what sends them out into the world to spill blood.

For mass shooters, achieving fame -- or infamy -- is a frequent driver

Why Many Serial Killers Crave Public Notoriety

"Based on evidence from the perpetrators’ own words, suicide notes, manifestos, homemade videos, police documents, and online profiles, the researchers identified 45 fame-seeking mass shooters and 263 non-fame-seeking mass shooters. (15%)
The researchers found that fame-seeking incidents have been on the rise since the turn of the century."
[www.psypost.org]

It occurred to me while I was pondering this latest hate shooting that drag queens are just people in costume. Men dressing up as women for the purposes of entertaining an audience literally goes back thousands of years. We have a very popular sorta-holiday in this country based on people (mostly kids, but adults too) in costumes pretending to be someone they’re not, as well as numerous -Con conventions (ComicCon, etc) full of the same, and that doesn’t seem to rile nutjobs anyway near the way drag queens do.

You can say the difference is that many (although I doubt all) drag queens are gay and thus must also have forbidden sex. Such people have apparently not heard about furry conventions…



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2022 08:52AM by pdq.

Quote
DeusxMac

Quote
Blankity Blank
People who perpetrate such heinous acts as this are far down their rabbit hole of hate and delusion and fear and anger. Infamy/fame is not what sends them out into the world to spill blood.

For mass shooters, achieving fame -- or infamy -- is a frequent driver

Paywalled. And of course, “frequent” does not equate with it being the most often found motivator. Or, the primary motivator driving the act.

Quote

Why Many Serial Killers Crave Public Notoriety

Thus seems to focus on serial killers, rather than mass shooters.

Quote

"Based on evidence from the perpetrators’ own words, suicide notes, manifestos, homemade videos, police documents, and online profiles, the researchers identified 45 fame-seeking mass shooters and 263 non-fame-seeking mass shooters. (15%)

45 fame seeking versus 263 non-fame seeking perpetrators. A rather lopsided indicator pointing towards factor other than fame.

These acts can be found, like virtually every other human activity, to of course have some number of incidences driven by a cornucopia of motivators.

There was no intent to put forth that they are never, on some level, about the acquisition of fame. But that putting a focus on that as a dominating factor is a disservice when other more common drivers such as rage, insecurity, hatred of “others”, not to even begin to plumb the depths of severe mental illness, are at the heart of the matter.

---

A priest, a rabbit and a minister walk into a bar.
The bartender asks the rabbit "what'll ya have?"
The rabbit says "I dunno. I'm only here because of Autocorrect.


National Suicide Prevention Lifeline
As of July 16, 2022, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is now available by simply dialing 988. The previous number, 1-800-273-8255, will remain active.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

Quote
Blankity Blank
45 fame seeking versus 263 non-fame seeking perpetrators. A rather lopsided indicator pointing towards factor other than fame.

These acts can be found, like virtually every other human activity, to of course have some number of incidences driven by a cornucopia of motivators.

Points were that 15% of the time "infamy/fame" IS "what sends them out into the world to spill blood". And it's on the increase.

Quote
Blankity Blank
There was no intent to put forth that they are never, on some level, about the acquisition of fame. But that putting a focus on that as a dominating factor is a disservice when other more common drivers such as rage, insecurity, hatred of “others”, not to even begin to plumb the depths of severe mental illness, are at the heart of the matter.

Sorry, but your OP reads as if that is what you were putting forth.


Here's the text of the above linked LA Times article (red emphasis mine):

OCT. 2, 2015 5:25 PM PT
At the epicenter of the nation’s latest mass shooting in Oregon, Douglas County Sheriff John Hanlin says the motives of the man who fatally shot 9 people on a college campus Thursday are not known.

But Hanlin, who says he will not “glorify” the perpetrator’s name by uttering it on national television, has suggested one factor driving the murderous actions of 26-year-old Chris Harper-Mercer: a quest for fame.

Hanlin’s suspicion is shared by many who probe the minds of mass shooters. In a society saturated by firearms and preoccupied by celebrity, these experts say that those who perpetrate such armed mayhem often seek to break the bonds of their invisibility and achieve what they feel life has denied them: Recognition. Glory. Respect.

On Friday, evidence mounted that Harper-Mercer was acutely attuned to the fame that comes to those who commit armed murder on a spectacular scale. Combing through the gunman’s online comments for clues to his motives, investigators found Harper-Mercer recently extolled the benefits of armed mayhem.

“I have noticed that so many people like him are all alone and unknown, yet when they spill a little blood, the whole world knows who they are,” Harper-Mercer wrote in a post about Vester Flanagan, who in August shot two news reporters on live television in Roanoke, Va.

“A man who was known by no one, is now known by everyone. His face splashed across every screen, his name across the lips of every person on the planet, all in the course of one day. Seems the more people you kill, the more you’re in the limelight,” Mercer wrote.

University of Alabama criminologist Adam Lankford said that fame -- or infamy -- has emerged as a common thread in mass shootings since Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold predicted on videotapes left behind that their armed rampage at Columbine High School would be one for the history books.

As they planned the shootings that would claim the lives of 12 fellow students and one teacher, Harris and Klebold “predicted with chilling and stunning accuracy was how their actions and offenses would encourage other similarly disaffected individuals to follow suit,” said Dr. Steven Pitt, who conducted a psychiatric autopsy of the incident for Colorado law enforcement officials.

“And sadly, they were correct,” he said. A long litany of mass shooters -- from Virginia Tech gunman Cho Seung-Hui to Adam Lanza of Newtown, Conn. -- have cited Harris and Klebold as inspirations for their actions.

The bid for public attention and renown is not unique to American gunmen, said Lankford, who is conducting a comprehensive study of the mass-shooting phenomenon. But it is a common thread that lies uniquely at the intersection of two American obsessions: guns and celebrity.

And so, he said, it is a regular feature of mass shootings in the United States, especially of those committed by younger perpetrators and gunmen whose actions have higher death tolls.

“Are they all fame seekers? To say that would be a little too simplified,” Lankford said. “But a large percentage of them are trying to speak to an audience” far larger than their families and acquaintances.

Many mass shooters, Lankford said, leave behind writings and videotaped manifestos that they clearly intend to be found, played and replayed in the echo chamber of American media. They inveigh against their tormentors and seek to justify their actions.

And at some point, most echo the message left behind by Elliot Rodger, who killed six people in a rampage last year near UC Santa Barbara: that the fame they expect to achieve - -no matter how dubious or ephemeral -- will avenge the rejection or isolation that drove them to action in the first place.

interview with the hero: [www.nytimes.com]

damn! if not for this highly trained soldier taking the shooter down, it would have been so much worse...

YIKES!!!

When the shooting started, Mr. Fierro said, he hit the floor, pulling a friend down with him. As bullets sprayed, he saw the gunman move through the bar toward a door leading to a patio where dozens of bar patrons had fled. Mr. Fierro, who served in the Army for 15 years, said he raced across the room, grabbed the gunman by a handle on the back of his body armor, pulled him to the floor and jumped on top of him.

“Was he shooting at the time? Was he about to shoot? I don’t know,” Mr. Fierro said. “I just knew I had to take him down.”

The gunman, who Mr. Fierro estimated weighed more than 300 pounds, sprawled onto the floor, his military-style rifle landing just out of reach. Mr. Fierro started to go for the rifle, but then saw that the gunman had a pistol as well.

“I grabbed the gun out of his hand and just started hitting him in the head, over and over,” Mr. Fierro said.

As the fight continued, he said, he yelled for other club patrons to help him. A man grabbed the rifle and moved it away to safety. A drag dancer stomped on the gunman with her high heels. The whole time, Mr. Fierro said, he kept pummeling the shooter’s head while the two men screamed obscenities at each other.

When police arrived a few minutes later, the gunman was no longer struggling, Mr. Fierro said, and he feared that he had killed him. The suspect in the shooting was taken into custody and remained hospitalized on Monday afternoon.

Mr. Fierro said he was covered in blood when the police arrived, and officers tackled him and put him in handcuffs. He said he was held in a police car for more than an hour, and screamed and pleaded to be let go so that he could see what had happened to his family.

"A drag dancer stomped on the gunman with her high heels."

Now that is a visual.

---

“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias

The German word for contraceptive is “Schwangerschaftsverhütungsmittel”. By the time you finished saying that, it’s too late

Quote
Ombligo
"A drag dancer stomped on the gunman with her high heels."

Now that is a visual.

Along with the no doubt high degree understatement of, ”When police arrived a few minutes later, the gunman was no longer struggling…”

---

A priest, a rabbit and a minister walk into a bar.
The bartender asks the rabbit "what'll ya have?"
The rabbit says "I dunno. I'm only here because of Autocorrect.


National Suicide Prevention Lifeline
As of July 16, 2022, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is now available by simply dialing 988. The previous number, 1-800-273-8255, will remain active.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

btw, what do you think would have happened if our goodguy had a gun in his hand when the cops arrived?

Quote
hal
When the shooting started, Mr. Fierro said, he hit the floor, pulling a friend down with him. As bullets sprayed, he saw the gunman move through the bar toward a door leading to a patio where dozens of bar patrons had fled. Mr. Fierro, who served in the Army for 15 years, said he raced across the room, grabbed the gunman by a handle on the back of his body armor, pulled him to the floor and jumped on top of him.

“Was he shooting at the time? Was he about to shoot? I don’t know,” Mr. Fierro said. “I just knew I had to take him down.”

The gunman, who Mr. Fierro estimated weighed more than 300 pounds, sprawled onto the floor, his military-style rifle landing just out of reach. Mr. Fierro started to go for the rifle, but then saw that the gunman had a pistol as well.

“I grabbed the gun out of his hand and just started hitting him in the head, over and over,” Mr. Fierro said.

As the fight continued, he said, he yelled for other club patrons to help him. A man grabbed the rifle and moved it away to safety. A drag dancer stomped on the gunman with her high heels. The whole time, Mr. Fierro said, he kept pummeling the shooter’s head while the two men screamed obscenities at each other.

When police arrived a few minutes later, the gunman was no longer struggling, Mr. Fierro said, and he feared that he had killed him. The suspect in the shooting was taken into custody and remained hospitalized on Monday afternoon.

Mr. Fierro said he was covered in blood when the police arrived, and officers tackled him and put him in handcuffs. He said he was held in a police car for more than an hour, and screamed and pleaded to be let go so that he could see what had happened to his family.

Along with the no doubt high degree understatement of, ”When police arrived a few minutes later, the gunman was no longer struggling…”


That and the well-heeled assistance caught my eye.


btw, what do you think would have happened if our goodguy had a gun in his hand when the cops arrived?


Given the number of people around the bad guy and good guy, he would have been ordered to drop the weapon, and no doubt the same training and mindset that motivated him to risk his life, would have had him drop the weapon immediately, if not put it down before they came within eyesight.

And apparently there were no shortage of witnesses to help get it sorted.

Btw, what were you trying to imply?


Few people have any kind of trying to offer effective assistance, however well meaning.

And why should they?

All most people want to do is live their life, within the rule of law, not bothering others or being bothered.

And that's what everybody should be able to do.

But something anybody here might keep in mind, should they choose to take similar action, whether as a primary or secondary respondent (not responder) — control the hands.

The vet called for help, and people responded.

In such a situation, a bunch of people grabbing the assailant's hands and arms greatly improve the chances of containing and neutralizing him.

Beating the guy in the head, as was shown, is eventually effective, but not immediately effective.

It make for lots of blood but isn't really effective until someone is dead or near death.

Good going for the guy that removed the rifle.

If enough people controlled the hands, removing the handgun or rendering safe would have been much easier, and the fight could have been over sooner.

I'm not faulting anybody; the assailant was captured and there were no further shots fired.

Much admiration for everybody involved in the capture.

---

I am that Masked Man.

All you can do, is all you can do.

There’s trouble — it's time to play the sound of my people.

Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

I've been to the edge of the map, and there be monsters.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody counts or nobody counts.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.

Quote
RAMd®d
And apparently there were no shortage of witnesses to help get it sorted.

This would indicate it didn’t get “sorted out” quickly…

Quote

Mr. Fierro said he was covered in blood when the police arrived, and officers tackled him and put him in handcuffs. He said he was held in a police car for more than an hour, and screamed and pleaded to be let go…

This would indicate it didn’t get “sorted out” quickly…


It did get sorted out.

Nobody said anything about "quickly".

Except you.

---

I am that Masked Man.

All you can do, is all you can do.

There’s trouble — it's time to play the sound of my people.

Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

I've been to the edge of the map, and there be monsters.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody counts or nobody counts.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.