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Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: chopper
Date: February 02, 2023 08:05PM
So the local utility company is charging residents big big money for ACCESS to the grid? Even if they have solar?

People with a roof of solar panels have to pay the utility company hundreds of dollars a month? Non-resident and trying to understand what my resident friend is telling me?
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: mattkime
Date: February 02, 2023 08:11PM
link?


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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: jonny
Date: February 02, 2023 08:47PM
Has there been any response from local government?
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: February 02, 2023 08:58PM
That was odd. Sorry, wrong window.


In tha 360. MRF User Map



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2023 11:36PM by Filliam H. Muffman.
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: jonny
Date: February 02, 2023 09:03PM
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
The GOP Attack on Ilhan Omar Trivializes Antisemitism Elevating Marjorie Taylor Greene while punishing Omar exposes the hypocrisy
https: //nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/02/ilhan-omar-congress-house-anti-semitism-marjorie-taylor-greene.html

?
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: davester
Date: February 02, 2023 09:08PM
SD? I'm presuming this is South Dakota, land of Big Oil, and not San Diego, land of sun-loving Republicans.


"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: steve...
Date: February 02, 2023 10:01PM
A similar tactic to Wyoming, who's lawmakers want to ban electric car sales by 2035?




Northern California Coast
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: pqrst
Date: February 02, 2023 10:10PM
I know that solar panels homes, when they put power back into the grid, often find that the local power lines, built many moons ago, can’t handle the new power. And require pretty pricey upgrades of transformers and power lines. This happened to friends of mine in Honolulu. A little like when your son in law and entire family move into your house and suddenly there are four cars for your one car garage.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2023 10:11PM by pqrst.
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: gadje
Date: February 02, 2023 10:19PM
Quote
pqrst
I know that solar panels homes, when they put power back into the grid, often find that the local power lines, built many moons ago, can’t handle the new power. And require pretty pricey upgrades of transformers and power lines. This happened to friends of mine in Honolulu. A little like when your son in law and entire family move into your house and suddenly there are four cars for your one car garage.

I take this with a grain of salt.
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: Speedy
Date: February 02, 2023 10:20PM
Quote
gadje
Quote
pqrst
I know that solar panels homes, when they put power back into the grid, often find that the local power lines, built many moons ago, can’t handle the new power. And require pretty pricey upgrades of transformers and power lines. This happened to friends of mine in Honolulu. A little like when your son in law and entire family move into your house and suddenly there are four cars for your one car garage.

I take this with a grain of salt.

agree smiley w/gadje


Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: RgrF
Date: February 02, 2023 10:42PM
Quote
pqrst
I know that solar panels homes, when they put power back into the grid, often find that the local power lines, built many moons ago, can’t handle the new power. And require pretty pricey upgrades of transformers and power lines. This happened to friends of mine in Honolulu. A little like when your son in law and entire family move into your house and suddenly there are four cars for your one car garage.

NO.

It's when the septic tank collapses you notice.
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: February 03, 2023 09:07AM
Quote
RgrF
Quote
pqrst
I know that solar panels homes, when they put power back into the grid, often find that the local power lines, built many moons ago, can’t handle the new power. And require pretty pricey upgrades of transformers and power lines. This happened to friends of mine in Honolulu. A little like when your son in law and entire family move into your house and suddenly there are four cars for your one car garage.

NO.

It's when the septic tank collapses you notice.

Why would you connect solar panels to the septic tank?


It is what it is.
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: February 03, 2023 10:24AM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
RgrF
Quote
pqrst
I know that solar panels homes, when they put power back into the grid, often find that the local power lines, built many moons ago, can’t handle the new power. And require pretty pricey upgrades of transformers and power lines. This happened to friends of mine in Honolulu. A little like when your son in law and entire family move into your house and suddenly there are four cars for your one car garage.

NO.

It's when the septic tank collapses you notice.

Why would you connect solar panels to the septic tank?

Because he's hot shtt


Hurts like a bastid...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/2023 10:24AM by mrbigstuff.
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: Diana
Date: February 03, 2023 11:10AM
smiley-laughing001
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: gabester
Date: February 03, 2023 03:34PM
I feel like I remember this being a thing years ago when people first started deploying solar on residential properties, that some utilities would point to local regulation and charge electrical grid generator grade rates for their connections to feed power back into the grid.

Not saying it's right, but it's amazing what companies will do when they think they can get away with it.


g=
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: GGD
Date: February 03, 2023 04:16PM
I think this might be what your friend may be running into, although it only mentions it as being a proposal, not an approved change, and no costs are detailed.

[www.blackhillsenergy.com]

Quote

Every day, Black Hills Energy provides essential energy that our customers rely on. We take our responsibility of providing safe, clean and reliable energy seriously, which is why we’ve filed with the South Dakota Public Utilities Commission to ensure that all customers pay equitable fixed costs associated with having 24/7 access to the energy grid.

On March 19, 2021, Black Hills Power, Inc. d/b/a Black Hills Energy requested approval to revise its Cogeneration and Small Power Production Service tariff. The revised tariff, referred to as the QF Service tariff, would establish a new rate for energy generated by behind-the-meter, private solar and small wind energy installations. We're taking this action to ensure fair energy pricing for all customers, so that customers pay all costs associated with the energy they consume, whether it be “self-generated,” or from the grid.

Under our current rate structure, customers who have elected to install behind the meter generation such as private rooftop solar or small wind energy systems on their homes are not paying their fair share of the fixed costs to use the energy grid. As a result, this small group of customers are having their fixed costs subsidized by all other customers. The proposed amendment would allow customers installing new generation going forward to be equitably paid for the energy they produce while covering their share of system costs, keeping energy rates low for all customers.

Fixed costs include costs associated with building, maintaining, and operating the electrical grid. This includes the poles, wire, and equipment required to provide 24/7 safe, reliable service – even when intermittent customer generation sources are not producing, or their demand exceeds what they are producing.

As proposed, the QF Service tariff would be applicable for small renewable power production and co-generation facilities of less than 1 megawatt (MW) and sets forth avoided cost rates that would be paid by Black Hills Energy to customers for all energy produced by such systems.

...
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: gadje
Date: February 03, 2023 04:36PM
So my electric bill has Delivery and Supply

Delivery charges:

Monthly service charge: $4.95 ( this is fixed)
Charges for delivering electric to you: $0.045350 * kWh

Supply charges
Cost of electric supplied by company: $0.133133 * kWh


So even those with solar panel still pay the fixed monthly fee and also some of the delivery charges, depending on how much energy they take from or send to the grid.
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: Speedy
Date: February 03, 2023 04:42PM
Black Hills Energy is serving a Republican dominated state. They are simply taking advantage of that circumstance to screw over green energy and the little guy just like in most all Republican dominated states.


Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: GGD
Date: February 03, 2023 05:11PM
Interesting that they refer to these as "fixed costs" per customer, yet seem to want to bill based on the variable amount of power that the customer produces and consumes, rather than a fixed monthly charge.

My water bill has a fixed monthly charge for being hooked up, and then metered usage is added on top of that. Seems like that would be the "fair" way to equally spread the cost of the infrastructure.
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: sekker
Date: February 04, 2023 11:37AM
These fights are inevitable in part because the cost of renewable energy is now cheaper than older technologies.

Ironically, the states that preach 'free market' are the same ones that are trying to now 'protect' these legacy utility vendors.

Cable companies trying to screw internet users for access through their physical pipes is another example. Those are 'fixed costs' but the cable company gets far less $$/access point from a cord cutter than a $200 / month TV subscription.

The future of electricity is solar, wind, and nuclear (and maybe fusion in 20+ years). The economics of this transition is now past the point of no return on this transition. Most of those fighting this are older folk who just want to line their pockets for the next 10 years.
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: February 04, 2023 07:57PM
I take this with a grain of salt.


I agree with everyone who agrees with you.

And you, of course, LOL.

Thousands (?) of houses are drawing current from the utility supplier's grid.

Hundred's are feeding power back to the supplier.

Are then drawing current from the supplier while suppling the supplier?

I don't think so, Tim.

Or maybe it's because the customer's solar generated electricity has to travel up/i] the wires, back to the plant, instead of downhill, where the flow is easier, to the customer.

That makes sense.





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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: February 05, 2023 09:27AM
So what's the actual charge per month?

Or is it currently only a proposal from the utilities or their lobbyists?

IMHO, all whole-house inverters should support a standalone/island mode with battery connection so they can be configured as both on-grid & off-grid installs.
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: davester
Date: February 05, 2023 12:33PM
Quote
Bill in NC
So what's the actual charge per month?

Or is it currently only a proposal from the utilities or their lobbyists?

IMHO, all whole-house inverters should support a standalone/island mode with battery connection so they can be configured as both on-grid & off-grid installs.

The extra circuitry and components required to do that are very expensive, which is why very few people buy such inverters. For such a seldom used feature the cost is prohibitive.


"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: btfc
Date: February 05, 2023 02:57PM
[news.energysage.com]


[www.solarpowerworldonline.com]
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: February 06, 2023 02:42PM
Quote
davester
Quote
Bill in NC
So what's the actual charge per month?

Or is it currently only a proposal from the utilities or their lobbyists?

IMHO, all whole-house inverters should support a standalone/island mode with battery connection so they can be configured as both on-grid & off-grid installs.

The extra circuitry and components required to do that are very expensive, which is why very few people buy such inverters. For such a seldom used feature the cost is prohibitive.

adding circuitry to handle battery charge/discharge is expensive?

I'd think it would be more about utility approval...still, a reference design shouldn't be difficult.
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: February 06, 2023 02:47PM
Quote
davester
Quote
Bill in NC
So what's the actual charge per month?

Or is it currently only a proposal from the utilities or their lobbyists?

IMHO, all whole-house inverters should support a standalone/island mode with battery connection so they can be configured as both on-grid & off-grid installs.

The extra circuitry and components required to do that are very expensive, which is why very few people buy such inverters. For such a seldom used feature the cost is prohibitive.

adding circuitry to handle battery charge/discharge is expensive?

I'd think it would be more about utility approval...still, a standardized design shouldn't be difficult.
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: bfd
Date: February 07, 2023 06:17PM
Well, SD could be San Diego because Net Metering 3.0 started out with a grid interconnect charge. This is what almost all PoCos are doing to try to monetize solar for themselves. They claim that because solar users don't use as much power from the grid, the costs of maintaining the grid falls almost entirely upon those who can least afford to go solar. While there's a modicum of truth to this assertion, the PoCos went overboard in an attempt to cut privatized solar off at the knees. While they very recently won a small part of a long battle - a new NM 3.0 - they didn't get what they really wanted in terms of control of the solar market. They'll have to way a few more decades for that, but anyone who goes solar after this April will lose about 60% of the savings they might've had if they could do so in March. Plus, to get any savings at all, they will have to connect a battery to their system.

[news.energysage.com]
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: JoeH
Date: February 08, 2023 01:22AM
Quote
Bill in NC
Quote
davester
Quote
Bill in NC
So what's the actual charge per month?

Or is it currently only a proposal from the utilities or their lobbyists?

IMHO, all whole-house inverters should support a standalone/island mode with battery connection so they can be configured as both on-grid & off-grid installs.

The extra circuitry and components required to do that are very expensive, which is why very few people buy such inverters. For such a seldom used feature the cost is prohibitive.

adding circuitry to handle battery charge/discharge is expensive?

I'd think it would be more about utility approval...still, a standardized design shouldn't be difficult.

It is not just battery discharge and charging. Solar systems just connected to provide power while the grid is active can synch their inverter output to the incoming current. Off grid the inverter needs circuitry to maintain a steady frequency, not return any power to the grid through the connection to the house, re-synch to the grid power when it comes back, and a number of other functions related to charge and discharge rates for the batteries. Would also need circuitry to only use power from the panels for charging in many installations. There are also remote controls on some systems to allow selling stored power during peak periods to the utilities instead of the utilities needing to bring a peaking power generation unit online.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2023 07:24AM by JoeH.
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: February 08, 2023 08:04AM
Quote
JoeH
Quote
Bill in NC
Quote
davester
Quote
Bill in NC
So what's the actual charge per month?

Or is it currently only a proposal from the utilities or their lobbyists?

IMHO, all whole-house inverters should support a standalone/island mode with battery connection so they can be configured as both on-grid & off-grid installs.

The extra circuitry and components required to do that are very expensive, which is why very few people buy such inverters. For such a seldom used feature the cost is prohibitive.

adding circuitry to handle battery charge/discharge is expensive?

I'd think it would be more about utility approval...still, a standardized design shouldn't be difficult.

It is not just battery discharge and charging. Solar systems just connected to provide power while the grid is active can synch their inverter output to the incoming current. Off grid the inverter needs circuitry to maintain a steady frequency, not return any power to the grid through the connection to the house, re-synch to the grid power when it comes back, and a number of other functions related to charge and discharge rates for the batteries. Would also need circuitry to only use power from the panels for charging in many installations. There are also remote controls on some systems to allow selling stored power during peak periods to the utilities instead of the utilities needing to bring a peaking power generation unit online.

sure, grid-tied inverters already sync with the utility grid and handle input from the solar panels.

so it is just adding circuitry for the batteries.

software easily handles priority...e.g. solar panel output charges battery first or goes to grid first during peak.
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: davester
Date: February 08, 2023 06:13PM
Quote
Bill in NC
Quote
JoeH
Quote
Bill in NC
Quote
davester
Quote
Bill in NC
So what's the actual charge per month?

Or is it currently only a proposal from the utilities or their lobbyists?

IMHO, all whole-house inverters should support a standalone/island mode with battery connection so they can be configured as both on-grid & off-grid installs.

The extra circuitry and components required to do that are very expensive, which is why very few people buy such inverters. For such a seldom used feature the cost is prohibitive.

adding circuitry to handle battery charge/discharge is expensive?

I'd think it would be more about utility approval...still, a standardized design shouldn't be difficult.

It is not just battery discharge and charging. Solar systems just connected to provide power while the grid is active can synch their inverter output to the incoming current. Off grid the inverter needs circuitry to maintain a steady frequency, not return any power to the grid through the connection to the house, re-synch to the grid power when it comes back, and a number of other functions related to charge and discharge rates for the batteries. Would also need circuitry to only use power from the panels for charging in many installations. There are also remote controls on some systems to allow selling stored power during peak periods to the utilities instead of the utilities needing to bring a peaking power generation unit online.

sure, grid-tied inverters already sync with the utility grid and handle input from the solar panels.

so it is just adding circuitry for the batteries.

software easily handles priority...e.g. solar panel output charges battery first or goes to grid first during peak.

Whatever you think regarding how easy it is to implement, it is in fact expensive. We put a 4.6 kw system on our roof last year and priced out the system both with and without battery backup. Battery backup more than doubled the cost, with about 2/3 of the extra for batteries and 1/3 for the slanging components..


"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2023 06:14PM by davester.
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: February 09, 2023 05:11AM
sorry, I'm talking about making the inverter support battery storage for future use, not the cost of the battery pack itself.

grid-tie only inverters should not exist.
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Re: Seems like the solar thing in real danger here in SD
Posted by: JoeH
Date: February 09, 2023 10:15AM
Quote
Bill in NC
sorry, I'm talking about making the inverter support battery storage for future use, not the cost of the battery pack itself.

grid-tie only inverters should not exist.

But they do because they significantly reduce the installation cost. As davester's post indicates, the additional cost of the inverter with charge/discharge functions added is half the cost of the batteries, not a small amount. A cost that in many cases is not necessary as much as you think it should be incurred by everyone. For a high number of usage cases having solar provide power during the day when demand is higher anyways and not providing backup storage for nighttime or occasional power outages is cost effective. Adding battery storage in many of those cases is not cost effective.
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