Jeez

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But the proposed mandate hasn’t had final approval, and wasn’t developed by DeSantis’ office.

Florida currently asks female high school athletes to provide information about their menstrual cycle on health forms required to participate in sports, but it is not mandatory.

Ryan Harrison, the association’s spokesperson, confirmed the new recommendations were developed by its sports medicine advisory committee and approved in late January. It will now be considered by the association board of directors at its next meeting in Gainesville from Feb. 26-27.

The association is recognized as the state’s official governing body for interscholastic sports. Its board includes a representative for the office of state Education Commissioner Manny Diaz, who DeSantis appointed. Diaz also picks three others to serve on the 16-member board.

DeSantis and Diaz’s offices didn’t respond to emails seeking comment this week, but Harrison stressed the proposed changes are not in response to concerns about transgender athletes competing in women’s sports, as some social media users claim.

“There is absolutely no support of the argument that their recommendation is aimed towards addressing an individual group of people,” he wrote in an email.

I don't like making the answers mandatory without additional confidentiality protections, but the motive seems to be in the right place -- protecting the health of female participants. Female athletes do have menstruation/fertility problems in greater numbers than the general population.

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Could we also get information on their sex lives? And, to be equally fair, how many ejaculations the boys have every month.

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Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.

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Tiangou
but the motive seems to be in the right place -- protecting the health of female participants.

As best I can tell, that abc article is mostly informed by fertility clinics. I don't think they're seeing people who conceive without trouble.

This makes zero sense to me to the point that I'm not sure what to believe.

As best I can tell, any exercise related fertility problems go away with the cessation of exercise and dieting. Completely reversible. ALSO, you're doing some pretty intense training to get to that point. I doubt many HS kids are training at that level.

Why the hell would anyone be concerned with the fertility of high school students in this manner?

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mattkime

Why the hell would anyone be concerned with the fertility of high school students in this manner?

I very much expect it’s under the guise of ‘looking out for their future’. The pretense matters more than the facts at hand.

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A priest, a rabbit and a minister walk into a bar.
The bartender asks the rabbit "what'll ya have?"
The rabbit says "I dunno. I'm only here because of Autocorrect.


National Suicide Prevention Lifeline
As of July 16, 2022, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is now available by simply dialing 988. The previous number, 1-800-273-8255, will remain active.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

According to Google.
"Having a period is not a feminine thing, and people of all genders menstruate, including non-binary people, agender people and even plenty of men! Menstruation doesn't change anything about your gender, it's just a thing that some bodies do."

My hunch is that the Florida High School Athletic Association is not going to put this recommendation into effect. I suspect there's a significant amount of Republican parents that have daughters in high school sports that aren't too keen on sharing this information with the school (and anyone else who has access to those records) when they are perfectly capable of keeping track of their daughter's periods all on their own to be able to relay to the doctor if the need arises. This proposal doesn't seem to be consistent with the "conservative" view that government should stay out of family stuff unless really necessary. Mandating the reporting of girl athletes' periods is not necessary.

I think it would be good to let the girls and their parents know about the possible risks from their athletic endeavors and that them keeping track of periods would be helpful to a doctor if needed.

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e pluribus unum



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2023 09:45AM by Ted King.

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Mr645
According to Google.
"Having a period is not a feminine thing, and people of all genders menstruate, including non-binary people, agender people and even plenty of men! Menstruation doesn't change anything about your gender, it's just a thing that some bodies do."

[www.who.int]

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Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with others. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.

It is true that someone that is born with female sexual anatomy can identify their gender as male - "male" in this context being the social construct we generally recognize as male characteristics and especially behavior. So a male gender identifying person can have periods.

It's important especially for the benefit of trans people that we keep in mind the distinction between gender and birth sexual traits. Unfortunately, there are far too many people blinded by their narrow value systems to see it and trans people suffer horribly because of it.

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e pluribus unum



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2023 09:20AM by Ted King.

Knowing when girls first period happens ensures that Conservatives can rape pre-teens as soon as they are fertile.

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In tha 360. MRF User Map

So would this be a blood oath? What if the girl lies? What if she is on meds that change her cycle? How is anyone going to enforce or validate any of this?

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“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias

The German word for contraceptive is “Schwangerschaftsverhütungsmittel”. By the time you finished saying that, it’s too late

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Mr645
According to Google.

THERE’S your problem!

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Speedy
Could we also get information on their sex lives? And, to be equally fair, how many ejaculations the boys have every month.

Or if the ones writing these regs can even 'get it up' themselves anymore????…



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2023 08:48PM by bfd.

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Ted King

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Mr645
According to Google.
"Having a period is not a feminine thing, and people of all genders menstruate, including non-binary people, agender people and even plenty of men! Menstruation doesn't change anything about your gender, it's just a thing that some bodies do."

[www.who.int]

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Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with others. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.

It is true that someone that is born with female sexual anatomy can identify their gender as male - "male" in this context being the social construct we generally recognize as male characteristics and especially behavior. So a male gender identifying person can have periods.

It's important especially for the benefit of trans people that we keep in mind the distinction between gender and birth sexual traits. Unfortunately, there are far too many people blinded by their narrow value systems to see it and trans people suffer horribly because of it.

Being born biologically female and transitioning to male does not make that person male, they are trans. Certain physical characteristics can be surgically and medically altered but that cannot make them male, able to impregnate female humans, be physically equal to biological males.
Same goes the other way, transitioning from biological male to female does not give that person the ability to carry a child, and does not mean they should compete physically with biological females.
Transgender and all people with non standard gender feelings (not sure that's the best word, but still pre-coffee) should certainly be able to freely live how they want to live, with respect and understanding but on Earth, with the Human race, not everyone is equal. Some are smarter, faster, taller, stronger than others. Some people face mental, health, sociological, economic challenges. That's just how life is.
All we can do is support others to be the best person they can be.

After school I really wanted to be a professional motorcycle racer, I just was not fast enough or willing to take such risks, bth economic and to my health to chase my dream.

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Mr645
Being born biologically female and transitioning to male does not make that person male, they are trans.

When is that of consequence?

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2023 10:32PM by mattkime.

I’m waiting for DeSatan to grandstand about he is single-handedly putting a stop to this.

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Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2023 10:32PM by mattkime.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2023 10:32PM by mattkime.

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Mr645

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Ted King

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Mr645
According to Google.
"Having a period is not a feminine thing, and people of all genders menstruate, including non-binary people, agender people and even plenty of men! Menstruation doesn't change anything about your gender, it's just a thing that some bodies do."

[www.who.int]

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Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with others. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.

It is true that someone that is born with female sexual anatomy can identify their gender as male - "male" in this context being the social construct we generally recognize as male characteristics and especially behavior. So a male gender identifying person can have periods.

It's important especially for the benefit of trans people that we keep in mind the distinction between gender and birth sexual traits. Unfortunately, there are far too many people blinded by their narrow value systems to see it and trans people suffer horribly because of it.

Being born biologically female and transitioning to male does not make that person male, they are trans. Certain physical characteristics can be surgically and medically altered but that cannot make them male, able to impregnate female humans, be physically equal to biological males.
Same goes the other way, transitioning from biological male to female does not give that person the ability to carry a child, and does not mean they should compete physically with biological females.
Transgender and all people with non standard gender feelings (not sure that's the best word, but still pre-coffee) should certainly be able to freely live how they want to live, with respect and understanding but on Earth, with the Human race, not everyone is equal. Some are smarter, faster, taller, stronger than others. Some people face mental, health, sociological, economic challenges. That's just how life is.
All we can do is support others to be the best person they can be.

Okay, I get it. You reject the use of the term "male" as defined by gender rather the term "male" can ONLY refer to birth sexual traits. To your way of thinking, "male" can ONLY refer to someone born with male sexual traits and a person is male and only male if they are born with male sexual traits even if their whole lives they have identified with the being a female in preferences and behaviors. IOW, even though something about their intrinsic biology led them to FEEL female in spite of some of their other intrinsic biology being the sexual traits of a male. Sexual traits are intrinsic biology but the feeling of being female also springs from their intrinsic biology. They no more choose to feel that way than you choose to feel like you are a heterosexual rather than homosexual. In spite of that, you have decided that the intrinsic sexual traits are the only ones that can be attached to the term "male" rather than also using it as defined in gender terms as someone who feels like they are female. Even though you could figure out which meaning is intended by context.

You reject using the term "male" in the gender context and basically assert that using the term "male" to only mean "born with male sexual traits". I suspect you think that your take is the objective truth about what the word "male" means. But it isn't. There are no objective truths about what meaning we want to attach to a word. The meanings of words often evolve through time. The same word can have different meanings in different places. The same words can have different meanings in different contexts. (That is very common.) You are entirely entitled to your opinion about what you want the word "male" to mean when you use it, but you are not entitled to assume that your preference is the objectively correct use of the term.

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e pluribus unum



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2023 08:17AM by Ted King.

An athlete should not be required to deny what they feel is their gender. Period. But it is an empirical question as to whether or not or how much of an athletic advantage a trans female gender athlete might have over their competitors born with physical female sexual traits. What's not an empirical question is if there is some athletic advantage, how much should that matter? I haven't read up on the research into the empirical question and I'm not sure how to assess the trade-offs between athletes that want to compete with someone who has what could be a significant competitive advantage due to physical birth sexual traits. I can see why some women athletes would consider it to be an unfair advantage - especially if there is a strong empirical case for there being a significant advantage. It's a tough one for me. I have a lot of empathy for these trans athletes. They face so,so many social obstacles and they just want to be the best athlete they can be and be out their competing with other athletes to see just how good that is. It's a terrible situation.

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e pluribus unum



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2023 08:09AM by Ted King.

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Ted King

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Mr645

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Ted King

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Mr645
According to Google.
"Having a period is not a feminine thing, and people of all genders menstruate, including non-binary people, agender people and even plenty of men! Menstruation doesn't change anything about your gender, it's just a thing that some bodies do."

[www.who.int]

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Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with others. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.

It is true that someone that is born with female sexual anatomy can identify their gender as male - "male" in this context being the social construct we generally recognize as male characteristics and especially behavior. So a male gender identifying person can have periods.

It's important especially for the benefit of trans people that we keep in mind the distinction between gender and birth sexual traits. Unfortunately, there are far too many people blinded by their narrow value systems to see it and trans people suffer horribly because of it.

Being born biologically female and transitioning to male does not make that person male, they are trans. Certain physical characteristics can be surgically and medically altered but that cannot make them male, able to impregnate female humans, be physically equal to biological males.
Same goes the other way, transitioning from biological male to female does not give that person the ability to carry a child, and does not mean they should compete physically with biological females.
Transgender and all people with non standard gender feelings (not sure that's the best word, but still pre-coffee) should certainly be able to freely live how they want to live, with respect and understanding but on Earth, with the Human race, not everyone is equal. Some are smarter, faster, taller, stronger than others. Some people face mental, health, sociological, economic challenges. That's just how life is.
All we can do is support others to be the best person they can be.

Okay, I get it. You reject the use of the term "male" as defined by gender rather the term "male" can ONLY refer to birth sexual traits. To your way of thinking, "male" can ONLY refer to someone born with male sexual traits and a person is male and only male if they are born with male sexual traits even if their whole lives they have identified with the being a female in preferences and behaviors. IOW, even though something about their intrinsic biology led them to FEEL female in spite of some of their other intrinsic biology being the sexual traits of a male. Sexual traits are intrinsic biology but the feeling of being female also springs from their intrinsic biology. They no more choose to feel that way than you choose to feel like you are a heterosexual rather than homosexual. In spite of that, you have decided that the intrinsic sexual traits are the only ones that can be attached to the term "male" rather than also using it as defined in gender terms as someone who feels like they are female. Even though you could figure out which meaning is intended by context.

You reject using the term "male" in the gender context and basically assert that using the term "male" to only mean "born with male sexual traits". I suspect you think that your take is the objective truth about what the word "male" means. But it isn't. There are no objective truths about what meaning we want to attach to a word. The meanings of words often evolve through time. The same word can have different meanings in different places. The same words can have different meanings in different contexts. (That is very common.) You are entirely entitled to your opinion about what you want the word "male" to mean when you use it, but you are not entitled to assume that your preference is the objectively correct use of the term.

The term "male" can refer to a persons biological sex, biological gender, however you want to call it. This fact cannot be changed, yet. There are specific traits a human male has. There are also people who are born male and feel "other than male", female, asexual, fluid sexual, and that's fine, but they will always have the basics male physical traits. These male traits make the person stronger, faster, larger than the equivalent female. If this were not true, there would not be male and female sports. It would just be sports. But even the best female tennis players have no chance against world class male tennis players, same for golf, soccer, basketball, boxing, track and field and on and on.
In the human species, male and female, biologically, are different. Can't change that. Is it fair for everyone? No, certainly not. I am too short to be good at basketball, too slow to run competitive track and field. All alone can do is be the best that they can, and in a vast majority of cases, we will fail to make inroads into the elite performances of activities we may love. That does not mean that everyone should not be treated with respect, kindness. Everyone has demons to deal with, some more difficult than others but just don't expect life to always be fair.

For years I road bicycles in long distance events, 120 miles, 200 miles, 400 miles etc. I was never elite at this, but I always compared my performance against previous performances, I competed against myself. I always looked to improve my performance, but I also understood there were some I could never match, and others that I would easily surpass. I never let that take away from the joy and accomplishments I achieved. I also never wanted to take away from the achievement of others. If I were to complete in a class level below my true performance that would not be right. Same goes for biological males that compete with biological females, they are taking away from others achievements. Again, life is not always fair.

You two are arguing over who gets to decide when the label 'male' or 'female' is applied.

Mr645 - you're just being an @#$%& by applying the label to people in ways they don't appreciate. Correctness doesn't matter - although you haven't even argued WHY it matters. You don't have to like someone's chosen label anymore than you have to like someone's politics. Most of us (but not all) find it within us to provide some common decency even to those we disagree with.

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mattkime
You two are arguing over who gets to decide when the label 'male' or 'female' is applied.

Mr645 - you're just being an @#$%& by applying the label to people in ways they don't appreciate. Correctness doesn't matter - although you haven't even argued WHY it matters. You don't have to like someone's chosen label anymore than you have to like someone's politics. Most of us (but not all) find it within us to provide some common decency even to those we disagree with.

I have no issues with someone living their life as a gender other than their biological, born gender. Just that there are certain aspects of daily life where they will not fit in. Certain situations can create a problem, such as public bathrooms. yes, those biological males living as females need to use a stall, take a seat. If non-binary folks want to have the respect of all others, they also need to respect others in situations that can make either party uncomfortable.

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Mr645
If non-binary folks want to have the respect of all others, they also need to respect others in situations that can make either party uncomfortable.

Does being in a public restroom with a non-binary person make you uncomfortable? Why?

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Mr645

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Ted King

You reject using the term "male" in the gender context and basically assert that using the term "male" to only mean "born with male sexual traits". I suspect you think that your take is the objective truth about what the word "male" means. But it isn't. There are no objective truths about what meaning we want to attach to a word. The meanings of words often evolve through time. The same word can have different meanings in different places. The same words can have different meanings in different contexts. (That is very common.) You are entirely entitled to your opinion about what you want the word "male" to mean when you use it, but you are not entitled to assume that your preference is the objectively correct use of the term.

The term "male" can refer to a persons biological sex, biological gender, however you want to call it. This fact cannot be changed, yet. There are specific traits a human male has. There are also people who are born male and feel "other than male", female, asexual, fluid sexual, and that's fine, but they will always have the basics male physical traits.

You use the term "biological gender", which is a kinda vague/ambiguous but okay but really is redundant to the term "biological sex" as you are using the term. Using it like that just equates the term "gender" with the term "sex". But there is also the cultural construct that is called "gender" as well, which I don't think I've seen you acknowledge yet - which is your prerogative. But until you do we are at an impasse because I'm going to keep using "male" and "female" to mean both "biological sex" and also gender as a cultural construct, depending on context.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. To quote you: "There are specific traits a human male has." That seems to be the only way you accept that we use the term "male" - in its "biological sex" sense.

Another quote: "...but they will always have the basics male physical traits". Nobody is claiming otherwise. I'll refer to my post directly above yours about what I think are the meaningful ramifications of that fact when a "biological sex" male athlete that gender identifies as female wants to compete with "biological sex" females that also identify as having the female gender cultural construct.

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e pluribus unum



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2023 01:07PM by Ted King.

How the Aussies define things below (I've edited for brevity). Seems as good as any, and I believe such discussions must use the terms consistently.

"The terms sex and gender are interrelated and often used interchangeably, however they are two distinct concepts:

Sex is understood in relation to sex characteristics. Sex recorded at birth refers to what was determined by sex characteristics observed at birth or infancy.
Gender is about social and cultural differences in identity, expression and experience.

Sex
A person's sex is based upon their sex characteristics, such as their chromosomes, hormones and reproductive organs.

Gender
• Gender identity is about who a person feels themself to be
• Gender expression is the way a person expresses their gender. A person's gender expression may also vary depending on the context, for instance expressing different genders at work and home
• Gender experience describes a person’s alignment with the sex recorded for them at birth i.e. a cis experience or a trans experience.

Sexual orientation
Sexual orientation is an umbrella concept that encapsulates:
•sexual identity (how a person thinks of their sexuality and the terms they identify with)
• attraction (romantic or sexual interest in another person)
• behaviour (sexual behaviour).

Variations of sex characteristics
Variations of sex characteristics refers to people with innate genetic, hormonal or physical sex characteristics that do not conform to medical norms for female or male bodies. It refers to a wide spectrum of variations to genitals, hormones, chromosomes and/or reproductive organs."

[www.abs.gov.au]

Mr645, I get the feeling that why we entered into this dialogue in the first has been lost along the way. This is where the dialogue started:

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Mr645
According to Google.
"Having a period is not a feminine thing, and people of all genders menstruate, including non-binary people, agender people and even plenty of men! Menstruation doesn't change anything about your gender, it's just a thing that some bodies do."

I didn't see how that directly related to any previous post in this thread and my first impression was that your post was intended to make fun of the quote because it sounds ridiculous. But maybe that wasn't your intent. If not, I'd like to hear what your intent was in posting that quote. I'm also interested in who brought it to your attention since it comes from an obscure web site.

Anyway, it is true that if you assume they meant "gender" to be the same as "biological sex", it would be ridiculous to say that all biological sexes have periods. The post I put up in response to yours was to point out that "biological sex" is not at all what they meant when the people in the quote used the term "gender" (they meant the cultural construct meaning of the word).

Ever since then I have been trying to get to the heart of that issue, but you seem to have been working under the impression that I was trying to make a point about the broader subject of the thread. It's like you brought two different lines of thought together that I never intended and I'm trying to sort my way through to keep my eye on that which got me to respond to you in the first place. I did make a separate post about the broader topic in the thread, which just seems to have added to the conflation. Argh.

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e pluribus unum



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2023 02:08PM by Ted King.

[www.vox.com]

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Over the course of several meetings, the Florida High School Athletic Association (FHSAA), which makes the rules governing student involvement in school sports statewide, leaned into a hardline position on both questions.

In January, the organization’s sports medicine committee recommended making the menstrual history questions mandatory and requiring students to turn their responses over to the school, according to the Palm Beach Post’s reporting.

I'd like to know the actual reasons they were for recommending this. I have a hard time believing it was simply because they were concerned about the health of the female athletes.

But then:

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In the end, the proposal failed after it attracted national scrutiny and prompted debates about what entities should have access to menstrual information. On February 9, the Florida High School Athletic Association voted to adopt a new medical evaluation form that does not include questions about menstrual history. Instead, students will submit an eligibility form that contains no medical details.

I suppose this all could be driven by innocent intentions, but it was stupid from the get go and fortunately it's buried and gone.

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e pluribus unum