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I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: vision63
Date: September 21, 2023 02:14PM
To listen to the rhetoric coming from the Unions, when did the "Big 3" automakers become so massively profitable. I thought Tesla and Toyota were supposed to be cleaning their clocks. They were just recently circling the drain to hear people tell it.

I guess GM is moving the hell out of some Chevy's and GMC trucks like never before.
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Re: I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: September 21, 2023 02:25PM
That's the dirty little secret since we bailed them out in 2009. They used their needed rescue as an excuse to skimp on wages, even when the profits started rolling in again. Time for a reset.
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Re: I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: vision63
Date: September 21, 2023 02:39PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
That's the dirty little secret since we bailed them out in 2009. They used their needed rescue as an excuse to skimp on wages, even when the profits started rolling in again. Time for a reset.

Still doesn't answer the question. Everybody, including here, speak of the Big 3 as financial failures. Why have they categorized them in that manner? I've not paid attention but from what I've read on these pages (and elsewhere), they can only sell trucks. They only became successful, when talk of a strike emerged. I don't really follow that business so I don't really know.

I don't want to assume that either side is being accurate. I would like an accurate assessment of the state of the American auto industry. Is Tesla the only company that can't make enough cars to keep up with demand? This is what people say. So, now American companies can't keep up with demand and their cars are popular?
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Re: I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: $tevie
Date: September 21, 2023 03:00PM
Not really my area of expertise, but I feel as if these links kind of explain it


[www.barrons.com]

Quote

For the automakers, the latest buybacks reflect an even stronger commitment to speculative payoffs for their shareholders. Ford spent $484 million on buybacks last year, its biggest outlay on the matter since 2014. GM, meanwhile, relaunched its buyback program in September 2022 after a five-year hiatus with a massive $1.5 billion expense and has issued nearly $3.4 billion in buybacks in the past twelve months.

Stellantis — formed from the 2021 merger of Chrysler, Fiat, and Peugeot — funneled $1.6 billion in stock buybacks to its shareholders starting in February. The most recent and final tranche of buybacks — totaling $536 million — was announced Tuesday, just days before the impending strike.
[jacobin.com]



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Re: I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: $tevie
Date: September 21, 2023 03:02PM
Also:

Quote

Key takeaways:

Profits at the “Big 3” auto companies—Ford, General Motors, and Stellantis— skyrocketed 92% from 2013 to 2022, totaling $250 billion. Forecasts for 2023 expect more than $32 billion in additional profits.

CEO pay at the Big 3 companies has jumped by 40% during the same period and the companies paid out nearly $66 billion in shareholder dividend payments and stock buybacks.

Autoworker concessions made following the 2008 auto industry crisis were never reinstated, including a suspension of cost-of-living adjustments. As a result, workers’ wages in the union and nonunion sector alike are falling farther behind inflation:

Across the U.S., auto manufacturing workers have seen their average real hourly earnings fall 19.3% since 2008.

Broadly sharing profits with workers will be even more critical as the industry focuses on becoming greener—both in what and how they produce cars and trucks. The Big 3 firms are set to receive record taxpayer-funded incentives to support their expansion into electric vehicle (EV) manufacturing. EV transition policies and the economic and climate potential they promise will not be sustained if auto workers and auto communities are again asked to sacrifice good jobs.
[www.epi.org]



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Re: I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: vision63
Date: September 21, 2023 03:12PM
Quote
$tevie
Not really my area of expertise, but I feel as if these links kind of explain it


[www.barrons.com]

Quote

For the automakers, the latest buybacks reflect an even stronger commitment to speculative payoffs for their shareholders. Ford spent $484 million on buybacks last year, its biggest outlay on the matter since 2014. GM, meanwhile, relaunched its buyback program in September 2022 after a five-year hiatus with a massive $1.5 billion expense and has issued nearly $3.4 billion in buybacks in the past twelve months.

Stellantis — formed from the 2021 merger of Chrysler, Fiat, and Peugeot — funneled $1.6 billion in stock buybacks to its shareholders starting in February. The most recent and final tranche of buybacks — totaling $536 million — was announced Tuesday, just days before the impending strike.
[jacobin.com]

I want them to be successful. That's more money to spread around. How come we couldn't enjoy a decade of American business prosperity news, and only hear about the negative. As if they were incompetent. I'll never trust anybody about that business again.

Not not to hijack my own post, but we're both adults here and it's time to talk about more serious matters.

You can't tell me you're not excited about the Orioles now!!!!! Geeze Louise!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2023 03:13PM by vision63.
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Re: I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: September 21, 2023 04:14PM
Unions are usually more sincere/obvious in their propaganda and talk about the people making the lowest wages at a site. Companies use examples of the 1% highest paid workers, and go to extreme lengths to avoid mentioning the tens of millions that the corporate officers make in addition to their salaries.

A millionaire is closer to being homeless than he is to being a billionaire.

I hadn't heard that the Orioles were doing really well. MLB TV contracts have sucked the fun out of being a fan.



In tha 360. MRF User Map
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Re: I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: $tevie
Date: September 21, 2023 04:17PM
Oh, I am still so angry about no broadcast tv games --
but my latent baseball/Orioles fandom has overtaken me and YES I AM EXCITED!

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Re: I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: vision63
Date: September 21, 2023 04:20PM
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
Unions are usually more sincere/obvious in their propaganda and talk about the people making the lowest wages at a site. Companies use examples of the 1% highest paid workers, and go to extreme lengths to avoid mentioning the tens of millions that the corporate officers make in addition to their salaries.

A millionaire is closer to being homeless than he is to being a billionaire.

I hadn't heard that the Orioles were doing really well. MLB TV contracts have sucked the fun out of being a fan.

They're in first place by 2 games. They're going to the playoffs. They have a chance to make a deep run. My Dodgers, on the NL side will be underdogs. Yeah, the TV contracts really hurt. They keep tinkering with the game format when really they need to make it so that people can actually "see" the games.
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Re: I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: vision63
Date: September 21, 2023 04:22PM
Quote
$tevie
Oh, I am still so angry about no broadcast tv games --
but my latent baseball/Orioles fandom has overtaken me and YES I AM EXCITED!


Woo Hoo! I need some way to hack MLB. I used to watch games on my battery powered TV.
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Re: I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: September 21, 2023 04:45PM



$tevie, you are awesome.

Just sayin'.






I am that Masked Man.

All you can do, is all you can do.

There’s trouble — it's time to play the sound of my people.

Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

I've been to the edge of the map, and there be monsters.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody counts or nobody counts.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: RgrF
Date: September 21, 2023 05:03PM
Quote
vision63
Woo Hoo! I need some way to hack MLB. I used to watch games on my battery powered TV.

With a T-Mobile account you can get MLB free. I no longer watch since my team turned to a Moneyball approach, they're now battling for a last place finish.
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Re: I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: Ted King
Date: September 21, 2023 05:05PM
Some extra context:

[apnews.com]

Quote

WASHINGTON (AP) — Two of President Joe Biden ‘s top goals — fighting climate change and expanding the middle class by supporting unions — are colliding in the key battleground state of Michigan as the United Auto Workers go on strike against the country’s biggest car companies.

The strike involves 13,000 workers so far, less than one-tenth of the union’s total membership, but it’s a sharp test of Biden’s ability to hold together an expansive and discordant political coalition while running for reelection.

Biden is trying to turbocharge the market for electric vehicles to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and prevent China from solidifying its grip on a growing industry. His signature legislation, known as the Inflation Reduction Act, includes billions of dollars in incentives to get more clean cars on the roads.

Some in the UAW fear the transition will cost jobs because electric vehicles require fewer people to assemble. Although there will be new opportunities in the production of high-capacity batteries, there’s no guarantee that those factories will be unionized and they’re often being planned in states more hostile to organized labor.

I don't know how much of a factor this is for the strikers, but it appears to be enough that it will probably be addressed in an overall agreement - if they come to an agreement where the companies don't basically just walk all over the strikers.



e pluribus unum



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2023 05:44PM by Ted King.
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Re: I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: September 21, 2023 05:09PM
Quote
vision63
My Dodgers, on the NL side will be underdogs.

This befuddles me. How the hell is the team that has won the NL West 11 out of the last 12 years -- a team that won 111 games last year (but choked in the first round of playoffs cursing smiley) an underdog?



It is what it is.
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Re: I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: Tiangou
Date: September 21, 2023 05:27PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
Lemon Drop
That's the dirty little secret since we bailed them out in 2009. They used their needed rescue as an excuse to skimp on wages, even when the profits started rolling in again. Time for a reset.

Still doesn't answer the question. Everybody, including here, speak of the Big 3 as financial failures. Why have they categorized them in that manner?

Market cap.

The performance of a stock is not a measure of real-world value or viability, but it's instinctively treated as such by most people.

So, Tesla -- which for most purchasers is just a brand of ugly uncomfortable cars with potentially VERY expensive repairs after an accident and no infrastructure-support -- is nevertheless seen as a leader, even as they cut prices (and corners) in their death-struggle to find new customers.

Look at this chart and then tell me you don't perceive Tesla as a winner and GM as a loser.





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Re: I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: vision63
Date: September 21, 2023 05:46PM
Quote
Tiangou
Quote
vision63
Quote
Lemon Drop
That's the dirty little secret since we bailed them out in 2009. They used their needed rescue as an excuse to skimp on wages, even when the profits started rolling in again. Time for a reset.

Still doesn't answer the question. Everybody, including here, speak of the Big 3 as financial failures. Why have they categorized them in that manner?

Market cap.

The performance of a stock is not a measure of real-world value or viability, but it's instinctively treated as such by most people.

So, Tesla -- which for most purchasers is just a brand of ugly uncomfortable cars with potentially VERY expensive repairs after an accident and no infrastructure-support -- is nevertheless seen as a leader, even as they cut prices (and corners) in their death-struggle to find new customers.

Look at this chart and then tell me you don't perceive Tesla as a winner and GM as a loser.


We are we being bombarded by how fantastically profitable they are. Which I would like to be true.
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Re: I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: August West
Date: September 21, 2023 06:21PM
Quote

That's more money to spread around.

This is not my understanding of capitalism's goal.

Also, I think the mysteries of large profits while keeping a poorhouse reputation extends to the airlines.



“There comes a point where we need to stop just pulling people out of the river. We need to go upstream and find out why they’re falling in."

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Re: I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: Ted King
Date: September 21, 2023 07:11PM
Quote
August West
Quote

That's more money to spread around.

This is not my understanding of capitalism's goal.

"spread around" = code for "trickle down"



e pluribus unum
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Re: I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: sekker
Date: September 21, 2023 10:17PM
Quote
Ted King
Some extra context:

[apnews.com]

Quote

WASHINGTON (AP) — Two of President Joe Biden ‘s top goals — fighting climate change and expanding the middle class by supporting unions — are colliding in the key battleground state of Michigan as the United Auto Workers go on strike against the country’s biggest car companies.

The strike involves 13,000 workers so far, less than one-tenth of the union’s total membership, but it’s a sharp test of Biden’s ability to hold together an expansive and discordant political coalition while running for reelection.

Biden is trying to turbocharge the market for electric vehicles to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and prevent China from solidifying its grip on a growing industry. His signature legislation, known as the Inflation Reduction Act, includes billions of dollars in incentives to get more clean cars on the roads.

Some in the UAW fear the transition will cost jobs because electric vehicles require fewer people to assemble. Although there will be new opportunities in the production of high-capacity batteries, there’s no guarantee that those factories will be unionized and they’re often being planned in states more hostile to organized labor.

I don't know how much of a factor this is for the strikers, but it appears to be enough that it will probably be addressed in an overall agreement - if they come to an agreement where the companies don't basically just walk all over the strikers.

I think the UAW is missing the point - they should be embracing making EVs so that they are exporting awesome cars and trucks. They CAN make up for the assembly efficiency by selling more vehicles. We are decades away from replacing 95% of ICE cars, for example.

EVs need less maintenance all-around, too. That is a major issue with dealerships however.
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Re: I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: sekker
Date: September 21, 2023 10:19PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
Tiangou
Quote
vision63
Quote
Lemon Drop
That's the dirty little secret since we bailed them out in 2009. They used their needed rescue as an excuse to skimp on wages, even when the profits started rolling in again. Time for a reset.

Still doesn't answer the question. Everybody, including here, speak of the Big 3 as financial failures. Why have they categorized them in that manner?

Market cap.

The performance of a stock is not a measure of real-world value or viability, but it's instinctively treated as such by most people.

So, Tesla -- which for most purchasers is just a brand of ugly uncomfortable cars with potentially VERY expensive repairs after an accident and no infrastructure-support -- is nevertheless seen as a leader, even as they cut prices (and corners) in their death-struggle to find new customers.

Look at this chart and then tell me you don't perceive Tesla as a winner and GM as a loser.


We are we being bombarded by how fantastically profitable they are. Which I would like to be true.

That data is from 2020, by the way.

I just note that Tesla vehicles are far more than 'ugly uncomfortable cars'. But you've shown us your point of view on this topic many times before, so we know your perspective.
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Re: I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: sekker
Date: September 21, 2023 10:19PM
Quote
$tevie
Oh, I am still so angry about no broadcast tv games --
but my latent baseball/Orioles fandom has overtaken me and YES I AM EXCITED!


Go Os!
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Re: I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: Tiangou
Date: September 21, 2023 10:39PM
Quote
sekker
Quote
vision63
Quote
Tiangou
Quote
vision63
Quote
Lemon Drop
That's the dirty little secret since we bailed them out in 2009. They used their needed rescue as an excuse to skimp on wages, even when the profits started rolling in again. Time for a reset.

Still doesn't answer the question. Everybody, including here, speak of the Big 3 as financial failures. Why have they categorized them in that manner?

Market cap.

The performance of a stock is not a measure of real-world value or viability, but it's instinctively treated as such by most people.

So, Tesla -- which for most purchasers is just a brand of ugly uncomfortable cars with potentially VERY expensive repairs after an accident and no infrastructure-support -- is nevertheless seen as a leader, even as they cut prices (and corners) in their death-struggle to find new customers.

Look at this chart and then tell me you don't perceive Tesla as a winner and GM as a loser.


We are we being bombarded by how fantastically profitable they are. Which I would like to be true.

That data is from 2020, by the way.

I just note that Tesla vehicles are far more than 'ugly uncomfortable cars'. But you've shown us your point of view on this topic many times before, so we know your perspective.

The general public considers them ugly uncomfortable cars with potentially VERY expensive repairs after an accident and no infrastructure-support.

And what's really funny is how often I've been compelled to argue in Tesla's favor even so.

I have two main problems with Tesla vehicles, neither of which are of great concern to the car-shoppers I talk to.

For them, Teslas are not worth considering because they are ugly uncomfortable cars with potentially VERY expensive repairs after an accident and no infrastructure-support.

But for me...

First, they're not the slightest bit innovative about passenger comfort, including a conspicuous lack of CarPlay and a pretty bad interface for... just about everything, but especially music.

Second is that Tesla treats their customers like expendable test rodents. For example, you can put a down payment for a vehicle with x-features and a few months later you receive a vehicle with y-features because Elon woke up with a new whim to replace the steering wheel and AC with a yoke and a swamp cooler. And they falsely advertise features like self-driving which is broken by design and deadly and can disappear along with any other computerized features at any time with a remote update. And of course, they have cameras everywhere that they use for spying on their customers and laughing at them.

I also have a problem with the company being tied to Elon Musk who is the world's most dangerous git with daddy issues at the moment. And to tie it into the thread properly: He's a d@mned union-buster.

...I think they're not so much ugly as kind of cheap-looking. Like instead of trying for a unique design, someone looked at that second-generation VW Beetle and said, "what if we just do that, but flatter and with ill-fitting panels?"

I would not simply call them ugly uncomfortable cars with potentially VERY expensive repairs after an accident and no infrastructure-support. Because that's not 1/100th why you shouldn't buy or support Tesla.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2023 11:04PM by Tiangou.
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Re: I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: RgrF
Date: September 21, 2023 10:46PM
Looks like the "Hollywood" strike may be drawing to a close; the two parties have entered into all night negotiations. Good for SAG and WGA if that happens.

UAW strikers encompass a far wider swath of workers working below the poverty line with much less opportunity to draw attention to their cause.

as an aside: What baseball is really all about (or should be)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2023 11:54PM by RgrF.
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Re: I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: kj
Date: September 22, 2023 12:44AM
Quote
Tiangou
Quote
sekker
Quote
vision63
Quote
Tiangou
Quote
vision63
Quote
Lemon Drop
That's the dirty little secret since we bailed them out in 2009. They used their needed rescue as an excuse to skimp on wages, even when the profits started rolling in again. Time for a reset.

Still doesn't answer the question. Everybody, including here, speak of the Big 3 as financial failures. Why have they categorized them in that manner?

Market cap.

The performance of a stock is not a measure of real-world value or viability, but it's instinctively treated as such by most people.

So, Tesla -- which for most purchasers is just a brand of ugly uncomfortable cars with potentially VERY expensive repairs after an accident and no infrastructure-support -- is nevertheless seen as a leader, even as they cut prices (and corners) in their death-struggle to find new customers.

Look at this chart and then tell me you don't perceive Tesla as a winner and GM as a loser.


We are we being bombarded by how fantastically profitable they are. Which I would like to be true.

That data is from 2020, by the way.

I just note that Tesla vehicles are far more than 'ugly uncomfortable cars'. But you've shown us your point of view on this topic many times before, so we know your perspective.

The general public considers them ugly uncomfortable cars with potentially VERY expensive repairs after an accident and no infrastructure-support.

And what's really funny is how often I've been compelled to argue in Tesla's favor even so.

I have two main problems with Tesla vehicles, neither of which are of great concern to the car-shoppers I talk to.

For them, Teslas are not worth considering because they are ugly uncomfortable cars with potentially VERY expensive repairs after an accident and no infrastructure-support.

But for me...

First, they're not the slightest bit innovative about passenger comfort, including a conspicuous lack of CarPlay and a pretty bad interface for... just about everything, but especially music.

Second is that Tesla treats their customers like expendable test rodents. For example, you can put a down payment for a vehicle with x-features and a few months later you receive a vehicle with y-features because Elon woke up with a new whim to replace the steering wheel and AC with a yoke and a swamp cooler. And they falsely advertise features like self-driving which is broken by design and deadly and can disappear along with any other computerized features at any time with a remote update. And of course, they have cameras everywhere that they use for spying on their customers and laughing at them.

I also have a problem with the company being tied to Elon Musk who is the world's most dangerous git with daddy issues at the moment. And to tie it into the thread properly: He's a d@mned union-buster.

...I think they're not so much ugly as kind of cheap-looking. Like instead of trying for a unique design, someone looked at that second-generation VW Beetle and said, "what if we just do that, but flatter and with ill-fitting panels?"

I would not simply call them ugly uncomfortable cars with potentially VERY expensive repairs after an accident and no infrastructure-support. Because that's not 1/100th why you shouldn't buy or support Tesla.

What car should we Tesla owners have bought instead? The only car that was even close for me was the BMW i4, which was superior in a few ways, but not for the things I cared most about.
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Re: I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: Speedy
Date: September 22, 2023 01:01AM
What is with Ferrari on that chart? I thought they were a niche automaker.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: I'm all for a strike, however,
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: September 22, 2023 10:16AM
Quote
Speedy
What is with Ferrari on that chart? I thought they were a niche automaker.

Price per unit/vehicle perhaps? I.e., “We only sold 1,000, but they cost $500,000 each.”
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