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Give Me Back My Bullets…
Posted by: btfc
Date: November 12, 2023 07:40AM
‘ Army Ammunition Plant Is Tied to Mass Shootings Across the U.S. ‘


‘ The vast majority of Lake City rounds sold by retailers have gone to law-abiding citizens, from hunters and farmers to target shooters. Some are drawn to them because they are made with the same materials and often to the same specifications as the military’s, while others see them as an authentic accessory for their tactical weapons and gear.

But more than one million pages of search warrants, police evidence logs, ballistic reports, forfeiture records and court proceedings compiled by The Times provide a sweeping accounting of how Lake City ammunition, once intended for war, has also cut a criminal path across towns and cities in nearly all 50 states. ‘



[www.nytimes.com]
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Re: Give Me Back My Bullets…
Posted by: Spock
Date: November 12, 2023 07:47AM
Profits before people?



Comedy Central: Best news channel that isn't a news channel.

Fox News: Best comedy channel that isn't a comedy channel.
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Re: Give Me Back My Bullets…
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: November 12, 2023 08:30AM
For the strict Constitutional origionalists, people have no Constitutional right to cartridge-type ammo.

Just powder & balls for your muskets.
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Re: Give Me Back My Bullets…
Posted by: pdq
Date: November 12, 2023 08:55AM
Quote
Lux Interior
For the strict Constitutional origionalists, people have no Constitutional right to cartridge-type ammo.

Just powder & balls for your muskets.

No, no. You’ve got it backward. They insist we need to show proscriptions against bullets (what?) present in 1793.

Also, y’know, sawed-off shotguns, and laws against guns on airplanes back in colonial days.
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Re: Give Me Back My Bullets…
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: November 12, 2023 11:26AM
I will if you give me three steps...



Hurts like a bastid...
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Re: Give Me Back My Bullets…
Posted by: Mr645
Date: November 12, 2023 01:07PM
"they are made with the same materials and often to the same specifications as the military’s"

The military uses 9mm and 5.56 rifle ammo, the same pistol and rifle ammo that are the most popular in the world by far. Military spec is nothing any different than consumer spec.

Estimated 40 million rounds are made every day for the US market. How many of those rounds are used to murder people? We can start with the 14 used in Chicago yesterday



"he is going to start WW3!!!!"
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Re: Give Me Back My Bullets…
Posted by: Speedy
Date: November 12, 2023 01:10PM
Quote
Mr645
"they are made with the same materials and often to the same specifications as the military’s"

The military uses 9mm and 5.56 rifle ammo, the same pistol and rifle ammo that are the most popular in the world by far. Military spec is nothing any different than consumer spec.

Estimated 40 million rounds are made every day for the US market. How many of those rounds are used to murder people? We can start with the 14 used in Chicago yesterday

14 shot dead in Chicago? This is why we need to confiscate all guns.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Give Me Back My Bullets…
Posted by: jonny
Date: November 12, 2023 01:35PM
"So, my tax dollars are being used to subsidize the commercial sale of military grade ammunition. Did I get that right? And, this ammunition has been used to slaughter my fellow citizens. I can't even describe how much anger this evokes. And the argument that they would have found other ammunition doesn't hold water. At least tax dollars aren't subsidizing those commercial enterprises." - Letter
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Re: Give Me Back My Bullets…
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: November 12, 2023 01:57PM
Quote
Mr645
The military uses 9mm and 5.56 rifle ammo, the same pistol and rifle ammo that are the most popular in the world by far.

I believe we addressed this specious "popular" claim some time ago. "Most of the world's" use IS for their MILITARY, not average citizens!
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Re: Give Me Back My Bullets…
Posted by: JoeH
Date: November 12, 2023 03:56PM
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
Mr645
The military uses 9mm and 5.56 rifle ammo, the same pistol and rifle ammo that are the most popular in the world by far.

I believe we addressed this specious "popular" claim some time ago. "Most of the world's" use IS for their MILITARY, not average citizens!

And the claim tries to ignore that the caliber of the ammo may be th same, but military loads often are not the same as those available to the public.
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Re: Give Me Back My Bullets…
Posted by: Mr645
Date: November 12, 2023 04:30PM
Quote
Speedy
Quote
Mr645
"they are made with the same materials and often to the same specifications as the military’s"

The military uses 9mm and 5.56 rifle ammo, the same pistol and rifle ammo that are the most popular in the world by far. Military spec is nothing any different than consumer spec.

Estimated 40 million rounds are made every day for the US market. How many of those rounds are used to murder people? We can start with the 14 used in Chicago yesterday

14 shot dead in Chicago? This is why we need to confiscate all guns.

We need to confiscate all guns from criminals. One person arrested for shooting someone was 13 years old, had a 9mm handgun with the serial number removed. The 13 yr old had been arrested an unknown number of times before but was known to police.



"he is going to start WW3!!!!"
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Re: Give Me Back My Bullets…
Posted by: Mr645
Date: November 12, 2023 04:33PM
Quote
JoeH
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
Mr645
The military uses 9mm and 5.56 rifle ammo, the same pistol and rifle ammo that are the most popular in the world by far.

I believe we addressed this specious "popular" claim some time ago. "Most of the world's" use IS for their MILITARY, not average citizens!

And the claim tries to ignore that the caliber of the ammo may be th same, but military loads often are not the same as those available to the public.

Incorrect. each caliber has a specific amount of "powered" and a specific chamber pressure the spec is designed for. Some have multiple specs, such as .38 special that comes in standard and +P spec, but not al guns using .28 special are rated for the +p ammo.
Like .223 and 5.56, physically identical but 5.56 has more powder, generates higher chamber pressure. But military ammo is not different from what is offered on the civilian market, just the guns are different. Example is no military uses AR-15s, they use M16 & M4 rifles



"he is going to start WW3!!!!"
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Re: Give Me Back My Bullets…
Posted by: pdq
Date: November 12, 2023 04:40PM
Quote
Mr645
Quote
Speedy
Quote
Mr645
"they are made with the same materials and often to the same specifications as the military’s"

The military uses 9mm and 5.56 rifle ammo, the same pistol and rifle ammo that are the most popular in the world by far. Military spec is nothing any different than consumer spec.

Estimated 40 million rounds are made every day for the US market. How many of those rounds are used to murder people? We can start with the 14 used in Chicago yesterday

14 shot dead in Chicago? This is why we need to confiscate all guns.

We need to confiscate all guns from criminals. One person arrested for shooting someone was 13 years old, had a 9mm handgun with the serial number removed. The 13 yr old had been arrested an unknown number of times before but was known to police.

Do you have a link for that?
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Re: Give Me Back My Bullets…
Posted by: JoeH
Date: November 12, 2023 05:03PM
Quote
Mr645
Quote
JoeH
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
Mr645
The military uses 9mm and 5.56 rifle ammo, the same pistol and rifle ammo that are the most popular in the world by far.

I believe we addressed this specious "popular" claim some time ago. "Most of the world's" use IS for their MILITARY, not average citizens!

And the claim tries to ignore that the caliber of the ammo may be th same, but military loads often are not the same as those available to the public.

Incorrect. each caliber has a specific amount of "powered" and a specific chamber pressure the spec is designed for. Some have multiple specs, such as .38 special that comes in standard and +P spec, but not al guns using .28 special are rated for the +p ammo.
Like .223 and 5.56, physically identical but 5.56 has more powder, generates higher chamber pressure. But military ammo is not different from what is offered on the civilian market, just the guns are different. Example is no military uses AR-15s, they use M16 & M4 rifles

Such ignorance you display here. There are many different loads for Mil Spec ammo in 5.56 and 7.62 caliber rounds. All have to fall within the specs designated for the firearms the military uses them in. Some variants are not legal to sell to civilians. Period.
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Re: Give Me Back My Bullets…
Posted by: Mr645
Date: November 12, 2023 06:19PM
5.56 spec
Parent case .223 Remington (M193)
Case type Rimless tapered, bottleneck
Bullet diameter 5.70 mm (0.224 in)
Land diameter 5.56 mm (0.219 in)
Neck diameter 6.43 mm (0.253 in)
Shoulder diameter 9.00 mm (0.354 in)
Base diameter 9.58 mm (0.377 in)
Rim diameter 9.60 mm (0.378 in)
Rim thickness 1.14 mm (0.045 in)
Case length 44.70 mm (1.760 in)
Overall length 57.40 mm (2.260 in)
Case capacity 1.85 cm3 (28.5 gr H2O)
Rifling twist 1 in 7 in (178 mm) or 1 in 9 in (229 mm)
Primer type Small rifle
Maximum pressure 55,114 PSI


There probably are certain custom specs for specific weapons but the M4 and AR-15 (certified for 5.56) sue these specs, Perhaps you are thinking of special bullets, explosive, incendiary and such? Outside of that there are no limitations from civilians buying MIL Spec ammo.

Many consumer shooters use .223, which has a lower powder load, slightly slower moving bullet, 50,000PSI max pressure instead of 55,000. Some consumer rifles are rated to shoot the .223 round and the higher pressure 5.56 round can cause damage. I don't believe the military uses .223 ammo but there should be no reason that M4 assault rifles would have issues firing .223 ammo



"he is going to start WW3!!!!"
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Re: Give Me Back My Bullets…
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: November 12, 2023 07:13PM
Logic chopping fallacy - Focusing on trivial details of an argument, rather than the main point of the argumentation.
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Re: Give Me Back My Bullets…
Posted by: Smote
Date: November 12, 2023 07:34PM
A 5.56 NATO chamber easily and safely fires .223 Remington rounds. It is a slightly looser chamber with a different leade. Most semi-autos are chambered in either 5.56 or .223 Wylde, and bolt action rifles are mostly chambered in .223 Remington, which is a tighter chamber and marginally more accurate with quality ammo.

Military full auto machine guns, not the lighter M16/M4 models, have an even looser 5.56 NATO chamber for higher reliability at very high rates of fire. Like the M249 SAW, and mini guns. Brass fired in a SAW or mini gun is a real PITA to reload, it is stretched out to nearly the bursting point from the generous chamber.

I think at some point full AP rounds became restricted, but ammo produced prior to the law was grandfathered. I know you can buy black tip .30-'06 AP rounds online for a few bucks a round. I know of a private seller who has a few belted ammo crates full for sale at reasonable prices to collectors only.

The green tip LAP rounds are fully legal as they aren't considered armor piercing. They are designed to go through an eastern block steel helmet at 400 yards I believe. But actual steel plate, not much different than regular ball ammo.

People getting wound up about the Lake City plant's operation by civilian contracts is based on complete ignorance of the decades long system of a civilian contract for operation, with the stipulation that extra can be produced and sold on the open market. It usually bounces back and forth between Federal and Winchester. The government price is sold at a razor thin profit, and the deal makes sense if only the operators can over run and sell the extra. You can go into most decent sporting goods store or outdoor superstore, or gun shop and buy Winchester "white box" which is NATO spec ammo. NATO 9mm is slightly more powerfull than SAAMI spec, but only about halfway to +P spec. Nothing magical or extra dangerous about it. Same holds true for the 5.56 rifle rounds.

So, if they aren't operated by civilian contract allowing selling excess production, the military runs it at a higher cost, and your taxes go up, and we up civilian production and import more. Basic economics.

did you know the Fremont CA Tesla plant was where guns and munitions were built in WW II? OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



"Defending your own life when in immediate danger to me is a basic right of each person. " Lemon Drop 11/17/2023 03:10 pm

Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008) Private citizens have the right under the Second Amendment to possess an ordinary type of weapon and use it for lawful, historically established situations such as self-defense in a home, even when there is no relationship to a local militia.

"The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept, and wording of the second amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as well as its interpretation by every major commentator and court in the first half-century after its ratification, indicates that what is protected is an individual right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful manner." Right to Keep and Bear Arms: Report of the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, Ninety-seventh Congress, Second Session. U.S. Government Printing Office. 1982. Digitized September 30, 2008.

From the NYSRPA v Bruen "Today, we decline to adopt that two-part approach. . . . Despite the popularity of this two-step approach, it is one step too many. Step one of the predominant framework is broadly consistent with Heller, which demands a test rooted in the Second Amendment's text, as informed by history."
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Re: Give Me Back My Bullets…
Posted by: macphanatic
Date: November 13, 2023 08:13AM
And there may be a bunch of military 5.56 hitting the market soon as the Army transitions to a new round, the 6.8.
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Re: Give Me Back My Bullets…
Posted by: Smote
Date: November 13, 2023 05:13PM
Quote
macphanatic
And there may be a bunch of military 5.56 hitting the market soon as the Army transitions to a new round, the 6.8.

We shall see how that plays out, as it will be a long transition. And since we are part of NATO, how will our using a different caliber than everyone else effect logistics. We have new 9mm rounds optimized for the Sig P320s, but they still fire fine in almost all 9mm firearms.



"Defending your own life when in immediate danger to me is a basic right of each person. " Lemon Drop 11/17/2023 03:10 pm

Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008) Private citizens have the right under the Second Amendment to possess an ordinary type of weapon and use it for lawful, historically established situations such as self-defense in a home, even when there is no relationship to a local militia.

"The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept, and wording of the second amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as well as its interpretation by every major commentator and court in the first half-century after its ratification, indicates that what is protected is an individual right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful manner." Right to Keep and Bear Arms: Report of the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, Ninety-seventh Congress, Second Session. U.S. Government Printing Office. 1982. Digitized September 30, 2008.

From the NYSRPA v Bruen "Today, we decline to adopt that two-part approach. . . . Despite the popularity of this two-step approach, it is one step too many. Step one of the predominant framework is broadly consistent with Heller, which demands a test rooted in the Second Amendment's text, as informed by history."
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Re: Give Me Back My Bullets…
Posted by: macphanatic
Date: November 14, 2023 02:27PM
Quote
Smote
Quote
macphanatic
And there may be a bunch of military 5.56 hitting the market soon as the Army transitions to a new round, the 6.8.

We shall see how that plays out, as it will be a long transition. And since we are part of NATO, how will our using a different caliber than everyone else effect logistics. We have new 9mm rounds optimized for the Sig P320s, but they still fire fine in almost all 9mm firearms.

The goal was to replace the M4 and the M249 with XM5 and XM250 respectively, both chambered in 6.8. Both feature an improved fire control unit which is supposed to help improve accuracy. Target was to begin equipping certain US Army units by the end of this year or early 2024. Role out speed is a bit dependent on the supply of 6.8 ammunition.
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Re: Give Me Back My Bullets…
Posted by: Smote
Date: November 14, 2023 05:49PM
I'll look into it. I had just assumed they would use new uppers. 6.8 is not a bad idea. In the Sanbox, at a distance, the 5.56 wasn't doing what they needed it to do. For a while, M14s were being pulled out of storage and accurized, and CMP instructors and competitors were brought in to teach long range skills with the M1A/M14. So, the "militia" was brought in to train the military..............

Looks like they want to retrofit the existing M240 as well.



"Defending your own life when in immediate danger to me is a basic right of each person. " Lemon Drop 11/17/2023 03:10 pm

Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008) Private citizens have the right under the Second Amendment to possess an ordinary type of weapon and use it for lawful, historically established situations such as self-defense in a home, even when there is no relationship to a local militia.

"The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept, and wording of the second amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as well as its interpretation by every major commentator and court in the first half-century after its ratification, indicates that what is protected is an individual right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful manner." Right to Keep and Bear Arms: Report of the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, Ninety-seventh Congress, Second Session. U.S. Government Printing Office. 1982. Digitized September 30, 2008.

From the NYSRPA v Bruen "Today, we decline to adopt that two-part approach. . . . Despite the popularity of this two-step approach, it is one step too many. Step one of the predominant framework is broadly consistent with Heller, which demands a test rooted in the Second Amendment's text, as informed by history."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2023 06:02PM by Smote.
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