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Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: Speedy
Date: November 16, 2023 01:20PM
I posted this in Mr645’s last defense of the gun topic.

[wapo.st]

It’s pretty effective when used as intended.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2023 01:23PM by Speedy.
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: $tevie
Date: November 16, 2023 01:35PM
I hope people on the fence will have a look. It's brutal. I wish the people who reallyneed to see it would look at it, but I have no faith that they will bother.



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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: pdq
Date: November 16, 2023 03:56PM
Well, this is the guy who told us if someone tried to come into his house with bad intent, they would have to be removed with a mop.

I was going to draw a conclusion, but you can draw your own.
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: kj
Date: November 16, 2023 06:52PM
I think literally everyone agrees that is horrendous.
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: Smote
Date: November 16, 2023 07:43PM
pictures generate emotions. Numbers generate facts [www.youtube.com] actual facts [ucr.fbi.gov]

"One government solution to a few mad men with guns is a law that makes into
criminals responsible, law-abiding people wanting larger magazines simply to protect
themselves. The history and tradition of the Second Amendment clearly supports state
laws against the use or misuse of firearms with unlawful intent, but not the disarmament
of the law-abiding citizen. That kind of a solution is an infringement on the
Constitutional right of citizens to keep and bear arms. The adoption of the Second
Amendment was a freedom calculus decided long ago by our first citizens who cherished
individual freedom with its risks more than the subservient security of a British ruler or
the smothering safety of domestic lawmakers. The freedom they fought for was worth
fighting for then, and that freedom is entitled to be preserved still."



"Defending your own life when in immediate danger to me is a basic right of each person. " Lemon Drop 11/17/2023 03:10 pm

Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008) Private citizens have the right under the Second Amendment to possess an ordinary type of weapon and use it for lawful, historically established situations such as self-defense in a home, even when there is no relationship to a local militia.

"The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept, and wording of the second amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as well as its interpretation by every major commentator and court in the first half-century after its ratification, indicates that what is protected is an individual right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful manner." Right to Keep and Bear Arms: Report of the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, Ninety-seventh Congress, Second Session. U.S. Government Printing Office. 1982. Digitized September 30, 2008.

From the NYSRPA v Bruen "Today, we decline to adopt that two-part approach. . . . Despite the popularity of this two-step approach, it is one step too many. Step one of the predominant framework is broadly consistent with Heller, which demands a test rooted in the Second Amendment's text, as informed by history."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2023 08:50PM by Smote.
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: Acer
Date: November 16, 2023 08:49PM
Yes, pictures of death do have a way of generating emotion. Or attracting attention to an outrage. Tomato, tomahto.
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: Speedy
Date: November 16, 2023 09:30PM
On average there is fewer than one self defense use of a gun per day to protect one’s home or family.

Quote
Smote
pictures generate emotions. Numbers generate facts [www.youtube.com] actual facts [ucr.fbi.gov]

"One government solution to a few mad men with guns is a law that makes into
criminals responsible, law-abiding people wanting larger magazines simply to protect
themselves. The history and tradition of the Second Amendment clearly supports state
laws against the use or misuse of firearms with unlawful intent, but not the disarmament
of the law-abiding citizen. That kind of a solution is an infringement on the
Constitutional right of citizens to keep and bear arms. The adoption of the Second
Amendment was a freedom calculus decided long ago by our first citizens who cherished
individual freedom with its risks more than the subservient security of a British ruler or
the smothering safety of domestic lawmakers. The freedom they fought for was worth
fighting for then, and that freedom is entitled to be preserved still."



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: November 16, 2023 09:34PM
Tom Grieve - “… served as speaker at the University of Wisconsin Law School on behalf of the Federalist Society concerning the 2nd Amendment…”


” The Federalist Society for Law and Public Policy Studies is an American conservative and libertarian legal organization that advocates for a textualist and originalist interpretation of the U.S. Constitution.”
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: November 16, 2023 10:30PM
There were over 72 suicides by gun per day in 2021. I'll put that up against 1 self defense per day.

Most firearm deaths are suicides
https: //usafacts.org/data-projects/firearms-suicides



In tha 360. MRF User Map
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: Smote
Date: November 17, 2023 12:38AM
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
There were over 72 suicides by gun per day in 2021. I'll put that up against 1 self defense per day.

Most firearm deaths are suicides
https: //usafacts.org/data-projects/firearms-suicides

decidedly less than the 500K-3 mlllion uses per year the CDC reports [www.forbes.com]

Here is the actual report pulled from the CDC website because of poltical pressure. [www.cdc.gov] political pressure isn't heresay, here are some of the e-mails.. one came through the White House channels [thereload.com] [thereload.com] [thereload.com]



"Defending your own life when in immediate danger to me is a basic right of each person. " Lemon Drop 11/17/2023 03:10 pm

Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008) Private citizens have the right under the Second Amendment to possess an ordinary type of weapon and use it for lawful, historically established situations such as self-defense in a home, even when there is no relationship to a local militia.

"The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept, and wording of the second amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as well as its interpretation by every major commentator and court in the first half-century after its ratification, indicates that what is protected is an individual right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful manner." Right to Keep and Bear Arms: Report of the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, Ninety-seventh Congress, Second Session. U.S. Government Printing Office. 1982. Digitized September 30, 2008.

From the NYSRPA v Bruen "Today, we decline to adopt that two-part approach. . . . Despite the popularity of this two-step approach, it is one step too many. Step one of the predominant framework is broadly consistent with Heller, which demands a test rooted in the Second Amendment's text, as informed by history."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2023 12:52AM by Smote.
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: Mr645
Date: November 17, 2023 06:12AM
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
There were over 72 suicides by gun per day in 2021. I'll put that up against 1 self defense per day.

Most firearm deaths are suicides
https: //usafacts.org/data-projects/firearms-suicides

And none using an AR-15.

Maybe we have a mental health issue in this country?



Biden/Putin 2024
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: pdq
Date: November 17, 2023 06:42AM
Funny that no other peer countries have a mental health issue like us.

I mean, that’s got to be the explanation, right, that all those other peer countries have lower homicide rates, and a tiny fraction of the gun deaths that we do…
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: Speedy
Date: November 17, 2023 08:13AM
Quote
Mr645
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
There were over 72 suicides by gun per day in 2021. I'll put that up against 1 self defense per day.

Most firearm deaths are suicides
https: //usafacts.org/data-projects/firearms-suicides

And none using an AR-15.

Maybe we have a mental health issue in this country?

The main mental health issue affecting gunners is how to manage to stroke more guns at one time. Also living in constant fear of other gunners.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: Mr645
Date: November 17, 2023 09:34AM
Quote
pdq
Funny that no other peer countries have a mental health issue like us.

I mean, that’s got to be the explanation, right, that all those other peer countries have lower homicide rates, and a tiny fraction of the gun deaths that we do…

about 1/2 the nations around the world have lower gun violence than the USA, about 1/2 are higher. If we eliminate several inner city hot spots reveled with high levels of gang and drug related gun violence, the USA is in the top 5 safest nations for gun violence.

But clearly the high suicide rate indicates a mental health issue in this country. However the USA is far from being in the top ten per capita. South Korea, Japan, Belgium and many others are far worse, so the mental health issue plaguing the USA is not unique.

[worldpopulationreview.com]

I unique problem I see is our politicians and media that use gun violence as a political mark. Even our idiot president keeps saying blatantly inaccurate things. All in an effort to garner support, votes, showing no interest in actually working toward solutions to fix gun violence issues



Biden/Putin 2024
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: November 17, 2023 10:01AM
“We won with poorly educated…" "I love the poorly educated!"

Yet again, you OBVIOUSLY have NOT actually read your own link!

Quote
Mr645
about 1/2 the nations around the world have lower gun violence than the USA, about 1/2 are higher. If we eliminate several inner city hot spots reveled with high levels of gang and drug related gun violence, the USA is in the top 5 safest nations for gun violence.

Your link actually states the U.S. is 23rd out of 179; that's top 13%!

Quote
Mr645
But clearly the high suicide rate indicates a mental health issue in this country. However the USA is far from being in the top ten per capita. South Korea, Japan, Belgium and many others are far worse, so the mental health issue plaguing the USA is not unique.

[worldpopulationreview.com]

Your link actually shows Japan is LOWER, and those "many others" include a number of "third-world" countries; not legitimate comparisons to the U.S..
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: Mr645
Date: November 17, 2023 10:30AM
Quote
DeusxMac
“We won with poorly educated…" "I love the poorly educated!"

Yet again, you OBVIOUSLY have NOT actually read your own link!

Quote
Mr645
about 1/2 the nations around the world have lower gun violence than the USA, about 1/2 are higher. If we eliminate several inner city hot spots reveled with high levels of gang and drug related gun violence, the USA is in the top 5 safest nations for gun violence.

Your link actually states the U.S. is 23rd out of 179; that's top 13%!

Quote
Mr645
But clearly the high suicide rate indicates a mental health issue in this country. However the USA is far from being in the top ten per capita. South Korea, Japan, Belgium and many others are far worse, so the mental health issue plaguing the USA is not unique.

[worldpopulationreview.com]

Your link actually shows Japan is LOWER, and those "many others" include a number of "third-world" countries; not legitimate comparisons to the U.S..


[en.wikipedia.org]



Biden/Putin 2024
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: November 17, 2023 11:24AM
Quote
Mr645
Quote
DeusxMac
“We won with poorly educated…" "I love the poorly educated!"

Yet again, you OBVIOUSLY have NOT actually read your own link!

Quote
Mr645
But clearly the high suicide rate indicates a mental health issue in this country. However the USA is far from being in the top ten per capita. South Korea, Japan, Belgium and many others are far worse, so the mental health issue plaguing the USA is not unique.

[worldpopulationreview.com]

Your link actually shows Japan is LOWER, and those "many others" include a number of "third-world" countries; not legitimate comparisons to the U.S..

[en.wikipedia.org]

Unaware of the difference between “homicide” and “suicide”?!?

“We won with poorly educated…" "I love the poorly educated!"
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: November 17, 2023 11:41AM
Quote
Smote
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
There were over 72 suicides by gun per day in 2021. I'll put that up against 1 self defense per day.

Most firearm deaths are suicides
https: //usafacts.org/data-projects/firearms-suicides

decidedly less than the 500K-3 mlllion uses per year the CDC reports [www.forbes.com]

Here is the actual report pulled from the CDC website because of poltical pressure. [www.cdc.gov] political pressure isn't heresay, here are some of the e-mails.. one came through the White House channels [thereload.com] [thereload.com] [thereload.com] CDCReimels-thanks-gun-control-advocates.pdf


The CDC MMWR you linked was not "pulled" and it says nothing that I see about defensive gun use. It is about how to prevent gun homicides and suicides.

One email you linked is criticizing gun rights people for claiming a DGU study is from the CDC, when it in fact is not. And not only that, the email says it has been widely and thoroughly debunked.

As we know.
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: Mr645
Date: November 17, 2023 11:57AM
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
Mr645
Quote
DeusxMac
“We won with poorly educated…" "I love the poorly educated!"

Yet again, you OBVIOUSLY have NOT actually read your own link!

Quote
Mr645
But clearly the high suicide rate indicates a mental health issue in this country. However the USA is far from being in the top ten per capita. South Korea, Japan, Belgium and many others are far worse, so the mental health issue plaguing the USA is not unique.

[worldpopulationreview.com]

Your link actually shows Japan is LOWER, and those "many others" include a number of "third-world" countries; not legitimate comparisons to the U.S..

[en.wikipedia.org]

Unaware of the difference between “homicide” and “suicide”?!?

“We won with poorly educated…" "I love the poorly educated!"

being unaware of the difference between homicide and suicide puts you in the same dementia ridden category as our puppet president.

[letmegooglethat.com]



Biden/Putin 2024
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: November 17, 2023 12:38PM
Quote
Mr645
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
Mr645
Quote
DeusxMac
“We won with poorly educated…" "I love the poorly educated!"

Yet again, you OBVIOUSLY have NOT actually read your own link!

Quote
Mr645
But clearly the high suicide rate indicates a mental health issue in this country. However the USA is far from being in the top ten per capita. South Korea, Japan, Belgium and many others are far worse, so the mental health issue plaguing the USA is not unique.

[worldpopulationreview.com]

Your link actually shows Japan is LOWER, and those "many others" include a number of "third-world" countries; not legitimate comparisons to the U.S..

[en.wikipedia.org]

Unaware of the difference between “homicide” and “suicide”?!?

“We won with poorly educated…" "I love the poorly educated!"

being unaware of the difference between homicide and suicide puts you in the same dementia ridden category as our puppet president.

[letmegooglethat.com]

huh smiley You are confused (or perhaps "demented" as you assert?).

YOU posted on "suicide", then YOU inserted a link to "homicide" data as support.
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: $tevie
Date: November 17, 2023 02:51PM
In all seriousness, if a person WERE to desire a weapon for self-protection, why wouldn't a 44 Magnum revolver, or whatever I don't know anything about guns, be enough or them? Why would that person need the kinds of weapons used in these mass shootings? Do they need to reduce the burglar to a fine paste? Shooting them dead isn't enough these days?



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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: Mr645
Date: November 17, 2023 04:01PM
Quote
$tevie
In all seriousness, if a person WERE to desire a weapon for self-protection, why wouldn't a 44 Magnum revolver, or whatever I don't know anything about guns, be enough or them? Why would that person need the kinds of weapons used in these mass shootings? Do they need to reduce the burglar to a fine paste? Shooting them dead isn't enough these days?

A vast majority of mass shootings are committed with killers using handguns. 9mm being the most popular caliber for a hand gun, far less powerful and destructive than a 44 magnum revolver. Although revolvers typically hold 6 rounds compared to 15 for a Semi auto pistol, either can be quickly reloaded. For semi auto just replace the magazine, revolvers you use a speed loaded or moon clip.

While many would say reducing a bugler to fine paste would be great, civilian firearms, pistols, rifles alike, won't do that. When our politicians say you can't hunt deer with an AR-15 because there is nothing left, is 100% inaccurate. In many states hunting deer with an AR-15 is banned because the AR-15 fires a round too small to humanly take down the animal for hunting. Common .270, 30-06 or .308 rifles are far, far more powerful than the little AR-15.



Biden/Putin 2024
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: Smote
Date: November 17, 2023 05:32PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
Smote
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
There were over 72 suicides by gun per day in 2021. I'll put that up against 1 self defense per day.

Most firearm deaths are suicides
https: //usafacts.org/data-projects/firearms-suicides

decidedly less than the 500K-3 mlllion uses per year the CDC reports [www.forbes.com]

Here is the actual report pulled from the CDC website because of poltical pressure. [www.cdc.gov] political pressure isn't heresay, here are some of the e-mails.. one came through the White House channels [thereload.com] [thereload.com] [thereload.com] CDCReimels-thanks-gun-control-advocates.pdf


The CDC MMWR you linked was not "pulled" and it says nothing that I see about defensive gun use. It is about how to prevent gun homicides and suicides.

One email you linked is criticizing gun rights people for claiming a DGU study is from the CDC, when it in fact is not. And not only that, the email says it has been widely and thoroughly debunked.

As we know.

CDC link in Forbes article [nap.nationalacademies.org] "In particular, a 2013 study ordered by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and conducted by The National Academies’ Institute of Medicine and National Research Council reported that, “Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence”:

"Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008."

[www.forbes.com]

"Another study estimates there are 1,029,615 DGUs per year “for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere” excluding “military service, police work, or work as a security guard,” (within the range of the National Academies’ paper), yielding an estimate of 162,000 cases per year where someone “almost certainly would have been killed” if they “had not used a gun for protection.”



"Defending your own life when in immediate danger to me is a basic right of each person. " Lemon Drop 11/17/2023 03:10 pm

Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008) Private citizens have the right under the Second Amendment to possess an ordinary type of weapon and use it for lawful, historically established situations such as self-defense in a home, even when there is no relationship to a local militia.

"The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept, and wording of the second amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as well as its interpretation by every major commentator and court in the first half-century after its ratification, indicates that what is protected is an individual right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful manner." Right to Keep and Bear Arms: Report of the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, Ninety-seventh Congress, Second Session. U.S. Government Printing Office. 1982. Digitized September 30, 2008.

From the NYSRPA v Bruen "Today, we decline to adopt that two-part approach. . . . Despite the popularity of this two-step approach, it is one step too many. Step one of the predominant framework is broadly consistent with Heller, which demands a test rooted in the Second Amendment's text, as informed by history."
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: anonymouse1
Date: November 17, 2023 06:16PM
Maybe I missed something, but I don’t see any “political pressure” in those emails. What do you see?

Quote
Smote
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
There were over 72 suicides by gun per day in 2021. I'll put that up against 1 self defense per day.

Most firearm deaths are suicides
[url=https://usafacts. org/data-projects/firearms-suicides]https: //usafacts.org/data-projects/firearms-suicides[/url][/quote]

decidedly less than the 500K-3 mlllion uses per year the CDC reports [url]https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsieh/2018/04/30/that-time-the-cdc-asked-about-defensive-gun-uses/?sh=76d413f4299a[/url]

Here is the actual report pulled from the CDC website because of poltical pressure. [url]https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/pdf/wk/mm6230.pdf[/url] political pressure isn't heresay, here are some of the e-mails.. one came through the White House channels [url]https://thereload.com/app/uploads/2022/12/CDC-DGU-media-request-closed-Redacted.pdf[/url] [url]https://thereload.com/app/uploads/2022/12/CDC-DGU-Mark-Bryant-on-killing-Kleck-estimate.pdf[/url] [url]https://thereload.com/app/uploads/2022/12/CDC-DGU-Beth-Reimels-thanks-gun-control-advocates.pdf[/url][/quote]
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: November 17, 2023 06:22PM
"Most purported self-defense gun uses are gun uses in escalating arguments, and are both socially undesirable and illegal"

"Firearms are used far more often to intimidate than in self-defense"

"Guns in the home are used more often to intimidate intimates than to thwart crime"

"Adolescents are far more likely to be threatened with a gun than to use one in self-defense"

"Few criminals are shot by decent law-abiding citizens"

"Self-defense gun use is rare and not more effective at preventing injury than other protective actions"


[www.hsph.harvard.edu]
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: Smote
Date: November 17, 2023 07:16PM
Quote
DeusxMac
"Most purported self-defense gun uses are gun uses in escalating arguments, and are both socially undesirable and illegal"

"Firearms are used far more often to intimidate than in self-defense"

"Guns in the home are used more often to intimidate intimates than to thwart crime"

"Adolescents are far more likely to be threatened with a gun than to use one in self-defense"

"Few criminals are shot by decent law-abiding citizens"

"Self-defense gun use is rare and not more effective at preventing injury than other protective actions"


[www.hsph.harvard.edu]

Harvard says rare, many others say 500k to 3 million. Maybe Harvard is wrong.



"Defending your own life when in immediate danger to me is a basic right of each person. " Lemon Drop 11/17/2023 03:10 pm

Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008) Private citizens have the right under the Second Amendment to possess an ordinary type of weapon and use it for lawful, historically established situations such as self-defense in a home, even when there is no relationship to a local militia.

"The conclusion is thus inescapable that the history, concept, and wording of the second amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as well as its interpretation by every major commentator and court in the first half-century after its ratification, indicates that what is protected is an individual right of a private citizen to own and carry firearms in a peaceful manner." Right to Keep and Bear Arms: Report of the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, Ninety-seventh Congress, Second Session. U.S. Government Printing Office. 1982. Digitized September 30, 2008.

From the NYSRPA v Bruen "Today, we decline to adopt that two-part approach. . . . Despite the popularity of this two-step approach, it is one step too many. Step one of the predominant framework is broadly consistent with Heller, which demands a test rooted in the Second Amendment's text, as informed by history."
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: November 17, 2023 07:43PM
Do I have this right, the Federal agency that should be responsible for collecting accurate gun death/shooting statistics, but isn't accurate because Congress, under direction by the gun lobby, has crippled it's ability to collect accurate statistics, doesn't collect accurate statistics?





In tha 360. MRF User Map
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: Mr645
Date: November 18, 2023 06:40AM
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
Do I have this right, the Federal agency that should be responsible for collecting accurate gun death/shooting statistics, but isn't accurate because Congress, under direction by the gun lobby, has crippled it's ability to collect accurate statistics, doesn't collect accurate statistics?


Seems odd no federal or private group would collect this data. Especially since the NRA is such small potatoes in the lobbying game. In face the NRA is likely to loose their position as #1 gun rights lobbying group



Biden/Putin 2024
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: pdq
Date: November 18, 2023 07:54AM
From his link, some of the stuff Smote left out:

Quote

On the other hand, some scholars point to a radically lower estimate of only 108,000 annual defensive uses based on the National Crime Victimization Survey (Cook et al., 1997). The variation in these numbers remains a controversy in the field.

In other words, they are simply recounting what others have claimed, not concluding they are accurate.

There are basically two people that are behind the [much] higher estimates; John Lott and Gary Kleck. I don’t think it’s unfair to say they’ve made careers out of their position on the topic. They certainly get cited by gunners every time the topic comes up.

On the other hand, we have a number of studies and papers from a variety of authors/investigators, often from highly respected institutions, citing data from sources like government-collected police reports and solid statistics, not self-reported defensive gun uses by gun owners (who apparently find themselves in life-threatening situations far more often than the experience of the rest of us.) Three million a year means over 8000 defensive gun uses per day.

Ultimately, this paper cited so often by the gun folks is simply a recounting of wildly different conclusions regarding gun violence, and an appeal (and a plan/framework) for better studies, which have long been opposed by the gun lobby.

PS:

Quote

Although violent crime rates have declined in recent years (Truman, 2011), the U.S. rate of firearm-related homicide is higher than that of any other industrialized country: 19.5 times higher than the rates in other high-income countries (Richardson and Hemenway, 2011). In 2010, incidents involving firearms injured or killed more than 105,000 individuals in the United States.20 A recent estimate suggested that firearm violence cost the United States more than $174 billion in 2010 (Miller, 2010).

No one knows exactly how many guns exist in the United States. In 2007, one estimate placed the total number of firearms in the country at 294 million: “106 million handguns, 105 million rifles, and 83 million shotguns” (Krouse, 2012, p. 8). Based on this estimate, the United States has the most guns per capita of any nation in the world.

If guns were the answer, we should long ago have had the lowest homicide rate. Instead, we have the highest among peer countries.
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: November 18, 2023 08:05AM
Quote
pdq
From his link, some of the stuff Smote left out:

Quote

On the other hand, some scholars point to a radically lower estimate of only 108,000 annual defensive uses based on the National Crime Victimization Survey (Cook et al., 1997). The variation in these numbers remains a controversy in the field.

In other words, they are simply recounting what others have claimed, not concluding they are accurate.

There are basically two people that are behind the [much] higher estimates; John Lott and Gary Kleck. I don’t think it’s unfair to say they’ve made careers out of their position on the topic. They certainly get cited by gunners every time the topic comes up.

On the other hand, we have a number of studies and papers from a variety of authors/investigators, often from highly respected institutions, citing data from sources like government-collected police reports and solid statistics, not self-reported defensive gun uses by gun owners (who apparently find themselves in life-threatening situations far more often than the experience of the rest of us.) Three million a year means over 8000 defensive gun uses per day.

Ultimately, this paper cited so often by the gun folks is simply a recounting of wildly different conclusions regarding gun violence, and an appeal (and a plan/framework) for better studies, which have long been opposed by the gun lobby.

PS:

Quote

Although violent crime rates have declined in recent years (Truman, 2011), the U.S. rate of firearm-related homicide is higher than that of any other industrialized country: 19.5 times higher than the rates in other high-income countries (Richardson and Hemenway, 2011). In 2010, incidents involving firearms injured or killed more than 105,000 individuals in the United States.20 A recent estimate suggested that firearm violence cost the United States more than $174 billion in 2010 (Miller, 2010).

No one knows exactly how many guns exist in the United States. In 2007, one estimate placed the total number of firearms in the country at 294 million: “106 million handguns, 105 million rifles, and 83 million shotguns” (Krouse, 2012, p. 8). Based on this estimate, the United States has the most guns per capita of any nation in the world.

If guns were the answer, we should long ago have had the lowest homicide rate. Instead, we have the highest among peer countries.

smiley-score010
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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: $tevie
Date: November 18, 2023 01:54PM
Quote
pdq
If guns were the answer, we should long ago have had the lowest homicide rate. Instead, we have the highest among peer countries.

And there it is.



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Re: Worth a repost. Gunners with AR-15s and their slaughters
Posted by: Spock
Date: November 18, 2023 04:16PM
Quote


There are basically two people that are behind the [much] higher estimates; John Lott and Gary Kleck. I don’t think it’s unfair to say they’ve made careers out of their position on the topic. They certainly get cited by gunners every time the topic comes up.

John Lott Ha Ha Ha, John the dog ate my homework Lott, that John Lott. Gunners love to quote him as he has made a career and money by telling them what they want to hear.

Quote

Disputed survey

In the course of a dispute with Otis Dudley Duncan in 1999–2000, Lott claimed to have undertaken a national survey of 2,424 respondents in 1997, the results of which were the source for claims he had made beginning in 1997. However, in 2000 Lott was unable to produce the data or any records showing that the survey had been undertaken. He said the 1997 hard drive crash that had affected several projects with co-authors had destroyed his survey data set, the original tally sheets had been abandoned with other personal property in his move from Chicago to Yale, and he could not recall the names of any of the students who he said had worked on it. Critics questioned whether the survey had ever taken place, but Lott defends the survey's existence and accuracy.
Mary Rosh persona

In response to the dispute surrounding the missing survey, Lott used a sock puppet by the name of "Mary Rosh" to defend his own works on Usenet and elsewhere. After investigative work by libertarian blogger Julian Sanchez, Lott admitted to using the Mary Rosh persona.

Further accusations claimed that Lott praised himself while posing as one of his former students and that "Rosh" was used to post a favorable review of More Guns, Less Crime on Amazon.com. Lott has claimed that the review was written by his son and wife. "I probably shouldn't have done it—I know I shouldn't have done it—but it's hard to think of any big advantage I got except to be able to comment fictitiously," Lott told The Washington Post in 2003.

[en.wikipedia.org]


Liar, charlatan, fraud, only in it for the money; call him what you like but don't expect anyone to take you seriously if you rely on his tainted "research".



Comedy Central: Best news channel that isn't a news channel.

Fox News: Best comedy channel that isn't a comedy channel.
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