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Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos are children
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: February 19, 2024 01:52PM
Tha Alabama Supreme Court has ruled that frozen embryos are children. That will allow prospective parents to sue IVF doctors and clinics for wrongful death if an embryo dies.

[www.yahoo.com]



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias

The German word for contraceptive is “Schwangerschaftsverhütungsmittel”. By the time you finished saying that, it’s too late



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2024 02:38PM by Ombligo.
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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos of children
Posted by: hal
Date: February 19, 2024 02:23PM
yep - and eggs are chickens... I get it...
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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos of children
Posted by: pdq
Date: February 19, 2024 02:40PM
I read an interesting thought experiment lately - a variation of a classic, I suppose. It went something like this:

Suppose there is a newborn baby, and a cryo cooler containing two frozen embryos, on the ground in front of you, and you see a (for instance) steam roller coming toward them, out of control.

If you could only save one, which one? The cooler, or the newborn?

The cryo cooler, right? It's two lives, not just one.

You disagree? So do I. How many frozen embryos need to be in that cryo cooler before you save the cooler instead of the newborn baby?

Like I said, just a thought experiment, and I generally don't put much stock in such things. But I was kinda surprised by this one.
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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos of children
Posted by: PeterB
Date: February 19, 2024 02:40PM
Quote
hal
yep - and eggs are chickens... I get it...

Won't someone please think of the eggs !!!




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos are children
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: February 19, 2024 04:15PM
What a weird case ( As usual).

The clinic/hospital that was storing the frozen embryos of these 3 couples somehow had a patient "escape" and access the freezer, and then remove the embryos. This injured his hands and he dropped all the embryos, which destroyed them.

So I can see the clinic getting sued for negligence, emotional harm, etc. But this ruling is absurd.

And like the anti-abortion rulings, it may ironically put IVF clinics out of business in the state, out of fear, and make it impossible for Alabama couples to have children this way.

Pro-life you say?
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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos are children
Posted by: Tiangou
Date: February 19, 2024 05:42PM
in IVF, they implant multiple embryos under the assumption that most will fail to implant in the uterus.

So, a woman gets 3 embryos implanted, one takes root and grows into a fetus and she has a legal claim for the 2 that fail to implant?

Or if none implant successfully then she can sue for the loss of three embryos?

I guess all the fertility specialists need to move to another state now.

...

"Section 36.06 recognizes that this is true of unborn human life no less than it is of all other human life - that even before birth, all human beings bear the image of God, and their lives cannot be destroyed without effacing his glory," the ruling stated, referring to the Alabama Constitution’s Section 36.06.

Did you think all the warnings about this country resembling "Handmaid's Tale" were metaphor and hyperbole?



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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos are children
Posted by: Ted King
Date: February 19, 2024 06:02PM
Quote
Tiangou
I guess all the fertility specialists need to move to another state now.

If they are dealing with fertilized eggs at all then what choice do they have other than that or move on to a different specialty?

Quote
Tiangou
...

"Section 36.06 recognizes that this is true of unborn human life no less than it is of all other human life - that even before birth, all human beings bear the image of God, and their lives cannot be destroyed without effacing his glory," the ruling stated, referring to the Alabama Constitution’s Section 36.06.

Did you think all the warnings about this country resembling "Handmaid's Tale" were metaphor and hyperbole?

Kevin Drum has a good take on the deep and flagrant religiosity of this ruling:

Quote

Alabama Chief Justice Tom Parker explained in, um, a wide-ranging concurring opinion:

Quote

[The principle against killing] has deep roots that reach back to the creation of man "in the image of God." Genesis 1:27 (King James).... Man's creation in God's image is the basis of the general prohibition on the intentional taking of human life. See Genesis 9:6 (King James).... Finally, the doctrine of the sanctity of life is rooted in the Sixth Commandment: "You shall not murder." Exodus 20:13 (NKJV 1982).

....The theologically based view of the sanctity of life adopted by the People of Alabama encompasses the following: (1) God made every person in His image; (2) each person therefore has a value that far exceeds the ability of human beings to calculate; and (3) human life cannot be wrongfully destroyed without incurring the wrath of a holy God, who views the destruction of His image as an affront to Himself.

....Carving out an exception for the people in this case, small as they were, would be unacceptable to the People of this State, who have required us to treat every human being in accordance with the fear of a holy God who made them in His image.

Parker goes on to cite Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Rev. John Sutherland Bonnell, Glanville Williams, Petrus Van Mastricht,¹ John Calvin, and the book of Jeremiah. I have to say that even in Alabama I didn't realize judicial opinions could rely so explicitly on the endorsement of a particular strand of Christian theology. But I guess I know better now.



e pluribus unum
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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos are children
Posted by: Tiangou
Date: February 19, 2024 07:07PM
Also, recall that this is the state that was so dedicated to killing prisoners that they had to invent a new way of doing so.

[apnews.com]



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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos are children
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: February 19, 2024 07:48PM
Now for the important question... if I have a cryostat with frozen embryos in my car, can I use the carpool lane ?
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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos are children
Posted by: RgrF
Date: February 19, 2024 08:26PM
This is also a court that is elected through a partisan political process, a process that brings together all of the conflicts that go along with electioneering. It's also a court that until just an election cycle or so back was headed by the right wing religious nutter Judge Roy Moore. Moore was twice removed from office for acts of corruption and judicial misconduct but subsequently elected again.

In short: this is a court that provides stereotypical imagery of bible belt (in)justice the South has so long fought to overcome.
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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos are children
Posted by: Janit
Date: February 20, 2024 06:07AM
Quote
Tiangou
in IVF, they implant multiple embryos under the assumption that most will fail to implant in the uterus.

So, a woman gets 3 embryos implanted, one takes root and grows into a fetus and she has a legal claim for the 2 that fail to implant?

Or if none implant successfully then she can sue for the loss of three embryos?

I guess all the fertility specialists need to move to another state now.

But don't the fertility specialists have a counter-claim that the failure to implant was caused by the woman's negligence? Wasn't she obligated to provide a suitable environment for the embryos?

And what about common miscarriage? Can't these be attributed to negligence? We will soon see a requirement for autopsies of all miscarriages in order to determine who was at fault. And women who miscarry before they know they are even pregnant will be liable for "concealment of pregnancy."

This will only stop when claims are made that a particular miscarriage happened because the embryo was created with defective sperm, putting the father on the hook for the death.
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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos are children
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: February 20, 2024 07:17AM
Quote
Tiangou
I guess all the fertility specialists need to move to another state now.

Probably solid advice for all the state's residents.
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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos are children
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: February 20, 2024 08:16AM
Quote
Lux Interior
Quote
Tiangou
I guess all the fertility specialists need to move to another state now.

Probably solid advice for all the state's residents.

Ahhh...the paradox of the South. There has been underway for some time a wave of Black families leaving the Midwest and Northeast to live in Southern towns. And these are the states growing in population while the rest stagnate.

The politics are more complex than they appear, especially if all you do is look at red/blue presidential election results and crazy social war issues like this.

I'm ever optimistic that growing and diverse populations will change the political landscape to do away with things like draconian, cruel abortion laws and other hypocritical nonsense.

You can only stretch the rubber band so far in one direction. It's gonna break on these short-sighted, narrow-minded people, who are out of step with their constituents.
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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos are children
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: February 20, 2024 10:02AM
Quote
Tiangou
in IVF, they implant multiple embryos under the assumption that most will fail to implant in the uterus.

So, a woman gets 3 embryos implanted, one takes root and grows into a fetus and she has a legal claim for the 2 that fail to implant?

Or if none implant successfully then she can sue for the loss of three embryos?

I guess all the fertility specialists need to move to another state now.

...

"Section 36.06 recognizes that this is true of unborn human life no less than it is of all other human life - that even before birth, all human beings bear the image of God, and their lives cannot be destroyed without effacing his glory," the ruling stated, referring to the Alabama Constitution’s Section 36.06.

Did you think all the warnings about this country resembling "Handmaid's Tale" were metaphor and hyperbole?

there are limits in other countries, but here in the USA there are plenty of unscrupulous doctors who will take a shotgun approach to "guarantee" pregnancy.

a relative is a high-risk OB who has to deal with complications from the above approach.

and his comments on those fertility doctors are not printable here.
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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos are children
Posted by: pdq
Date: February 20, 2024 11:04AM
Quote
Bill in NC
Quote
Tiangou
in IVF, they implant multiple embryos under the assumption that most will fail to implant in the uterus.

So, a woman gets 3 embryos implanted, one takes root and grows into a fetus and she has a legal claim for the 2 that fail to implant?

Or if none implant successfully then she can sue for the loss of three embryos?

I guess all the fertility specialists need to move to another state now.

...

"Section 36.06 recognizes that this is true of unborn human life no less than it is of all other human life - that even before birth, all human beings bear the image of God, and their lives cannot be destroyed without effacing his glory," the ruling stated, referring to the Alabama Constitution’s Section 36.06.

Did you think all the warnings about this country resembling "Handmaid's Tale" were metaphor and hyperbole?

there are limits in other countries, but here in the USA there are plenty of unscrupulous doctors who will take a shotgun approach to "guarantee" pregnancy.

a relative is a high-risk OB who has to deal with complications from the above approach.

and his comments on those fertility doctors are not printable here.

A multiple pregnancy?

That's a well-recognized risk from IVF. The only treatment is selective abortion. If the doc didn't explain that to your relative, he's prolly committing malpractice. But I'll bet he/she explained that.

It's still not a simple cookbook recipe. And it's hella expensive, and emotionally draining, to go through IVF without any pregnancy resulting. So it can be a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't path to follow.
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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos are children
Posted by: Janit
Date: February 20, 2024 12:06PM
Quote
pdq
Quote
Bill in NC
Quote
Tiangou
in IVF, they implant multiple embryos under the assumption that most will fail to implant in the uterus.

So, a woman gets 3 embryos implanted, one takes root and grows into a fetus and she has a legal claim for the 2 that fail to implant?

Or if none implant successfully then she can sue for the loss of three embryos?

I guess all the fertility specialists need to move to another state now.

...

"Section 36.06 recognizes that this is true of unborn human life no less than it is of all other human life - that even before birth, all human beings bear the image of God, and their lives cannot be destroyed without effacing his glory," the ruling stated, referring to the Alabama Constitution’s Section 36.06.

Did you think all the warnings about this country resembling "Handmaid's Tale" were metaphor and hyperbole?

there are limits in other countries, but here in the USA there are plenty of unscrupulous doctors who will take a shotgun approach to "guarantee" pregnancy.

a relative is a high-risk OB who has to deal with complications from the above approach.

and his comments on those fertility doctors are not printable here.

A multiple pregnancy?

That's a well-recognized risk from IVF. The only treatment is selective abortion. If the doc didn't explain that to your relative, he's prolly committing malpractice. But I'll bet he/she explained that.

It's still not a simple cookbook recipe. And it's hella expensive, and emotionally draining, to go through IVF without any pregnancy resulting. So it can be a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't path to follow.

His relative is the doctor who TREATS the women whose health is at risk because of the multiple pregnancy. He's the one who cleans up the mess.
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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos are children
Posted by: $tevie
Date: February 20, 2024 12:22PM
Quote
cbelt3
Now for the important question... if I have a cryostat with frozen embryos in my car, can I use the carpool lane ?

And can you claim them as dependents on your taxes?

The decision is ludicrous.



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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos are children
Posted by: Acer
Date: February 20, 2024 12:28PM
IVF will become legally impractical. The lost potential children will be replaced by outlawing birth control.
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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos are children
Posted by: Tiangou
Date: February 20, 2024 02:31PM
Quote
Janit
Quote
pdq
Quote
Bill in NC
Quote
Tiangou
in IVF, they implant multiple embryos under the assumption that most will fail to implant in the uterus.

So, a woman gets 3 embryos implanted, one takes root and grows into a fetus and she has a legal claim for the 2 that fail to implant?

Or if none implant successfully then she can sue for the loss of three embryos?

I guess all the fertility specialists need to move to another state now.

...

"Section 36.06 recognizes that this is true of unborn human life no less than it is of all other human life - that even before birth, all human beings bear the image of God, and their lives cannot be destroyed without effacing his glory," the ruling stated, referring to the Alabama Constitution’s Section 36.06.

Did you think all the warnings about this country resembling "Handmaid's Tale" were metaphor and hyperbole?

there are limits in other countries, but here in the USA there are plenty of unscrupulous doctors who will take a shotgun approach to "guarantee" pregnancy.

a relative is a high-risk OB who has to deal with complications from the above approach.

and his comments on those fertility doctors are not printable here.

A multiple pregnancy?

That's a well-recognized risk from IVF. The only treatment is selective abortion. If the doc didn't explain that to your relative, he's prolly committing malpractice. But I'll bet he/she explained that.

It's still not a simple cookbook recipe. And it's hella expensive, and emotionally draining, to go through IVF without any pregnancy resulting. So it can be a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't path to follow.

His relative is the doctor who TREATS the women whose health is at risk because of the multiple pregnancy. He's the one who cleans up the mess.

Three embryos is the standard. Odds are not great that any single embryo will successfully implant.

“Shotgun” seems like it might be 5 or more.



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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos are children
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: February 21, 2024 03:57PM
Here we go:
[www.al.com]


"The University of Alabama at Birmingham health system has paused in vitro fertilization procedures following an Alabama Supreme Court decision due to fear of criminal prosecution and lawsuits, a spokeswoman said.

A statement emailed by UAB spokeswoman Hannah Echols said they are “saddened” for patients who want to have babies through IVF. She said patients can continue the process up through egg retrieval, but fertilization and embryo development is paused for now."
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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos are children
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: February 21, 2024 08:13PM
“Shotgun” seems like it might be 5 or more.

Shades of the OctoMom.


if I have a cryostat with frozen embryos in my car, can I use the carpool lane ?


Or can a pregnant woman qualify for the HOV, if she doesn't appear to be pregnant?

A sonogram taped to the windshield?

The 'I'm pregnant so I'm allowed' defense has been attempted in CA to no avail, but in AL?






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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos are children
Posted by: Tiangou
Date: February 21, 2024 08:23PM
Quote
RAMd®d
The 'I'm pregnant so I'm allowed' defense has been attempted in CA to no avail, but in AL?

It worked in Texas.

[www.dallasnews.com]

The Plano woman argued that because a new Texas law had declared a fetus a living being, her unborn child should count as a second passenger...

The deputies didn’t buy it. They gave her an expensive ticket.

That set off a chain of events leading to great notoriety, something she was not looking for. After The Watchdog told her story, her quest to prove a point quickly found an international audience. A Massachusetts prosecutor was quoted in a New York Times story calling Bottone “my new feminist hero.”

Bottone’s ticket was dismissed.

After that, sticking to her position, she did it again and got a second ticket. This time, the deputies recognized her.

“When are you actually going to have your baby?” an officer asked.

“Tomorrow,” she replied.

They gave her another ticket.

That one was dismissed, too.




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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos are children
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: February 23, 2024 08:04AM
“I come to you and see all this ruin
What are you doing Alabama?
You got the rest of the union to help you along
What's going wrong?”
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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos are children
Posted by: Ted King
Date: February 23, 2024 12:45PM
Welcome to where logic takes you if you start with mystical assumptions. If you assume God zaps all embryos resulting from fertilization with a mystical version of personhood ("soul" but we won't use the word) - which this Alabama Supreme Court does - then the logical conclusion is that if IVF embryos are persons in God's eyes, then they are persons in the eyes of the law; because like, really, why draw any line between a religious law and secular law.

Since IVF is popularly supported by the vast majority of people, I'm hearing that there is talk of embryos not being a person unless they are in a woman's uterus. WTF. What is the mystical religious assumption behind that? That God only blesses with personhood embryos that happen to end up implanted in a woman's uterus? Mysticism2

Didn't the conservatives on the Supreme Court that overturned Roe say that it was limited to abortion as a state issue? Knuckleheaded rationalizations from them (other than Thomas that laid out this kind of thing is exactly what he wanted to happen) and this is the kind of crap we end up with.



e pluribus unum



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2024 01:16PM by Ted King.
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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos are children
Posted by: pdq
Date: February 23, 2024 01:14PM
Quote
Ted King
Knuckleheaded rationalizations from them (other than Thomas that laid out this kind of thing is exactly what he wanted to happen) and this is the kind of crap we end up with.

Calvinball. We have a majority; we can make up the rules and the knuckleheaded rationalizations as we go, @#$%&.
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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos are children
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: February 24, 2024 08:35AM
Quote
Tiangou
Quote
Janit
Quote
pdq
Quote
Bill in NC
Quote
Tiangou
in IVF, they implant multiple embryos under the assumption that most will fail to implant in the uterus.

So, a woman gets 3 embryos implanted, one takes root and grows into a fetus and she has a legal claim for the 2 that fail to implant?

Or if none implant successfully then she can sue for the loss of three embryos?

I guess all the fertility specialists need to move to another state now.

...

"Section 36.06 recognizes that this is true of unborn human life no less than it is of all other human life - that even before birth, all human beings bear the image of God, and their lives cannot be destroyed without effacing his glory," the ruling stated, referring to the Alabama Constitution’s Section 36.06.

Did you think all the warnings about this country resembling "Handmaid's Tale" were metaphor and hyperbole?

there are limits in other countries, but here in the USA there are plenty of unscrupulous doctors who will take a shotgun approach to "guarantee" pregnancy.

a relative is a high-risk OB who has to deal with complications from the above approach.

and his comments on those fertility doctors are not printable here.

A multiple pregnancy?

That's a well-recognized risk from IVF. The only treatment is selective abortion. If the doc didn't explain that to your relative, he's prolly committing malpractice. But I'll bet he/she explained that.

It's still not a simple cookbook recipe. And it's hella expensive, and emotionally draining, to go through IVF without any pregnancy resulting. So it can be a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't path to follow.

His relative is the doctor who TREATS the women whose health is at risk because of the multiple pregnancy. He's the one who cleans up the mess.

Three embryos is the standard. Odds are not great that any single embryo will successfully implant.

“Shotgun” seems like it might be 5 or more.

up to 7 in his experience, IIRC.
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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos are children
Posted by: Ted King
Date: February 25, 2024 08:52AM
I'll admit, I'm obsessed with this. Up till now, the constant justification for saying personhood starts at conception is because conception completes what is necessary for personhood or, if most of them are honest, because conception is when the material body is imbued with a soul.

The whole anti-abortion thing rests on that justification. But the Alabama judges and Justice Thomas explained with logic (see my post above) what follows from that assumption. Embryos created in a petri dish are imbued with personhood in that piece of glass. And as legally recognized people they have basic rights. Like the right to not die. If that leads to no IVF, then so be it because otherwise we are not treating IVF embryos as persons with basic rights. It's simple logical reasoning given the assumption they start with - conception is the beginning of personhood.

This is what irks me. Some people want IVF to be available even if they are anti-abortion supposedly based on the idea that conception results in personhood. So what, they just look past the whole justification for their anti-abortion stand and cheer for IVF? Like no moral cognitive dissonance? Do they not even care about the moral imperative that led them to be anti-abortion? Are they morally blind? Are they in essence choosing to be morally blind?

In the political realm the Republicans will find a way to keep IVF going while still opposing abortion and hope the whole thing goes away. Which, I'm afraid, it might. As though the inherent contradiction in their position doesn't matter. Let's just all move on.

To end this rant: This is a part of a bigger wasteland of moral ignorance that I see so much of. Not moral ignorance as in not knowing moral facts because I don't think there are moral facts, but ignorance of the implications of the moral stances people take that so often lead to contradictions and hypocrisies that are unrecognized and ignored because people are lazy about their moral thinking.

/rant



e pluribus unum



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2024 09:40AM by Ted King.
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Re: Alabamastan rules that frozen embryos are children
Posted by: Speedy
Date: February 25, 2024 03:11PM
Sort of like pro-lifers wanting guns and capital punishment. Makes no sense.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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