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Do any of the "Political Posters" here have their own, well formed political opinions ?
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: March 07, 2006 11:30AM
This obsessive posting of links from one site or another seems to indicate to me that the main political posters on this forum are sycophants who cannot develop and express coherent independent thought.

Admittedly, there are a few in this forum who express themselves without cut-and-paste from the blog or attack site du jour, but they are few and far between.

You guys would fail in a mano-a-mano debate in front of an audience. Please prove me wrong ?
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Re: Do any of the "Political Posters" here have their own, well formed political opinions ?
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 07, 2006 11:48AM
cbelt3 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This obsessive posting of links from one site or
> another seems to indicate to me that the main
> political posters on this forum are sycophants who
> cannot develop and express coherent independent
> thought.
>
> Admittedly, there are a few in this forum who
> express themselves without cut-and-paste from the
> blog or attack site du jour, but they are few and
> far between.
>
> You guys would fail in a mano-a-mano debate in
> front of an audience. Please prove me wrong ?

I'm neither an expert nor a talented writer. I post links to the writings of those that I consider to qualify as such. If others respond and I feel capable of defending the position I've advocated by posting the original link, I do so. What's wrong with that?

How about instead of criticizing me you post a political opinion and if I disagree I attempt to counter it?


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Re: Do any of the "Political Posters" here have their own, well formed political opinions ?
Posted by: rz
Date: March 07, 2006 12:46PM
Refurbvirgin apparently wrote all by himself:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm neither an expert nor a talented writer. I
> post links to the writings of those that I
> consider to qualify as such. If others respond and
> I feel capable of defending the position I've
> advocated by posting the original link, I do so.
> What's wrong with that?
>
There's nothing wrong with it, it just means that you're a sycophant who cannot develop and express coherent independent thought. Oops, sorry, I "borrowed" that from cbelt.

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with occasionally posting a link to something. But when you repeatedly post thread after thread where all you do is link to other sites, it gives the impression that you can't think for yourself. And judging from some of what you've posted, it comes off as the old "pot-kettle-black" thing.
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Re: Do any of the "Political Posters" here have their own, well formed political opinions ?
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 07, 2006 12:58PM
I link to articles that I think are important for others to know about, and which, hopefully, will spark some dialogue. If you aren't interested in a particular topic, hopefully my subject lines are clear enough about content most of the time, so that you aren't needlessly troubled by opening a thread which poses no interest to you. And if you find nothing of interest then you are not obligated to respond or challenge the perspective of the author I've linked.

If an author states opinions or gives information I agree with or believe factual what purpose is there for me to comment? If I didn't agree I wouldn't post it, so if you wish to engage me in dialogue take the article as the starting point and challenge anything you find worthy of your time.
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Re: Do any of the "Political Posters" here have their own, well formed political opinions ?
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: March 07, 2006 01:52PM
Someone is actively proving my point.

If you want to add to the body of work- read someone else's word, rub your neurons together, and develop thoughtful commentary or conclusions. Merely stating "This guy is so riiiight !" is not useful. We can all google for politicalfascistfreak.org .

Add something of yourself here ! They are not YOUR opinions !
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Re: Do any of the "Political Posters" here have their own, well formed political opinions ?
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 07, 2006 02:36PM
cbelt3 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Add something of yourself here ! They are not YOUR
> opinions !

About what would you like my opinion? Alternatively post your opinions and maybe I'll respond. I've posted plenty of my opinions, only to have proof demanded, so I thought it wise to post the authority on which I base my opinions (since that authority often states them better than I can) and wait for the blowback. :-)


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Re: Do any of the "Political Posters" here have their own, well formed political opinions ?
Posted by: davester
Date: March 07, 2006 03:51PM
I think it is utterly abusive to the other forum users to simply post links with no commentary whatsoever from the poster. It's as though you sat down at a bar hoping for some conversation but then the other bar denizens simply turned their boom boxes on you to blast you with recorded propaganda. Disgustingly rude!

On the other hand, a related unpleasant practice is to make provocative and controversial statements as though they were facts without providing a link for a reference source (and no, left or right wing propaganda sites are not reference sources).



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Do any of the "Political Posters" here have their own, well formed political opinions ?
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 07, 2006 04:47PM
davester Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think it is utterly abusive to the other forum
> users to simply post links with no commentary
> whatsoever from the poster. It's as though you
> sat down at a bar hoping for some conversation but
> then the other bar denizens simply turned their
> boom boxes on you to blast you with recorded
> propaganda. Disgustingly rude!

I did not realize that you were afflicted with obsessive/compulsive disorder, combined with audible reading syndrome. You apparently are forced by some genetic defect to open every message I post, and then feel physically compelled to read my words which you, through a neural pathway defect, "hear" as if I'm shouting the words in your face. I feel so sorry for you, but I can't help you. Consult your doctor. If no medications are available to combat this tragic disease perhaps he or she can recommend a competent therapist so that you can learn to control your symptoms.

> On the other hand, a related unpleasant practice
> is to make provocative and controversial
> statements as though they were facts without
> providing a link for a reference source (and no,
> left or right wing propaganda sites are not
> reference sources).

So when so-called mainstream sources are all shills for the same corporations (or outright owned by them) you would consider them more valid sources than independent media? S'cuse me - let me turn down my boombox so I can hear you.

There. Can you hear me now?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2006 04:51PM by Refurbvirgin.
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Re: Do any of the "Political Posters" here have their own, well formed political opinions ?
Posted by: Effin Haole
Date: March 07, 2006 04:59PM
One mans propaganda is another mans "to do" list.
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Re: Do any of the "Political Posters" here have their own, well formed political opinions ?
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: March 07, 2006 09:39PM
Yo- refurb.
I wasn't talking about *just* you.
Neither was davester.

Stop taking it all so personally.

As near as I can tell, the only well formed personal opinions you have is that your fellow forum members are somehow mentally ill for disagreeing with you.

We don't mind. We're kind of crazy that way.
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Re: Do any of the "Political Posters" here have their own, well formed political opinions ?
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 07, 2006 10:20PM
OK - try this for a "well-formed personal opinion:"

George Bush is a faux-Christian, mass murderer & election thief who has bankrupted our nation for the sake of international elites who are his real constituents, and for whom he has betrayed our nation, and shredded our Constitutional rights and freedoms while establishing our reputation as wanton savages who emulate Hitler in waging unprovoked war, killing tens of thousands of innocent people and justifying it with more lies.

But then I've said that before, so that probably won't be good enough for you.

Your turn.
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Re: Do any of the "Political Posters" here have their own, well formed political opinions ?
Posted by: davester
Date: March 07, 2006 10:34PM
cbelt3 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Add something of yourself here ! They are not YOUR
> opinions !

I think that is the distilled essence of what this thread is attempting to elucidate. The opinions of others we can read about in the newspapers or see on TV or find on the web. The purpose of coming to a forum is to engage in discourse with people who can generate their own ideas rather than parroting spoon-fed propaganda. I feel a George Orwell quote coming on....wait for it....






"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Do any of the "Political Posters" here have their own, well formed political opinions ?
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 07, 2006 10:54PM
cbelt3 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Add something of yourself here ! They are not YOUR opinions !

If I didn't agree with the authors of the links I posted I wouldn't post them.

davester Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think that is the distilled essence of what this thread is attempting to elucidate.

Post what you want. I'm not stopping or discouraging you from posting in any way am I? I don't see you contributing profound essays exploring options to the nightmare we are living through. I do see you spending an extraordinary amount of time criticizing me, though, and you're welcome to do that should you feel that be the greatest contribution you can make.
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Re: Do any of the "Political Posters" here have their own, well formed political opinions ?
Posted by: x-uri
Date: March 07, 2006 11:42PM
There is linkage, and there is linkage.

If the link is in response to a post it may be viewed as a way of saying "Someone smart/well-informed/eloquent has already formulated a reply to your point. You may read it here."

If the link is the top post in the thread, it may be read as "Here is something I have found with which I dis/agree. Perhaps someone would care to discuss it?"

As Davester sugests, one of the strengths of this medium is that we can provide citations that hyperlink back to the source material, so that our correspondents can look for themselves.

A much more annoying practice is the parroting of an opinion or pseudofact received from Rush, or Hannity, or O'Reilly -- then refusing to engage in a discussion.

Or, when someone posts a link to a news item or opinion piece which does NOT say what the poster alleges it does, then calls anyone who points this out "un-American", or "a stalinist", or "a useful idiot" -- as if reading comprehension were a tool of the global communist/islamofascist conspiracy.

Or when someone who clearly does not know what the word "sycophant" means, can't be bothered to control+click>Look Up In Dictionary.

BTW Anyone else notice the edits don't always take on the first (or third) try?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2006 11:46PM by x-uri.
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Re: Do any of the "Political Posters" here have their own, well formed political opinions ?
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 07, 2006 11:51PM
Thanks x-uri, my bad.

syc·o·phant
n. A servile self-seeker who attempts to win favor by flattering influential people.

ps: if you refresh your window the edit will show up.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2006 02:20AM by Refurbvirgin.
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Re: Do any of the "Political Posters" here have their own, well formed political opinions ?
Posted by: x-uri
Date: March 08, 2006 04:36AM
Refurbvirgin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks x-uri, my bad.
>
> syc·o·phant
> n. A servile self-seeker who attempts to win favor
> by flattering influential people.

Re-read top post in the thread (cbelt3's) and imagine that I have not read every post that you have made on this board (in which the word "sycophant" may, or may not, have been used correctly)

>
> ps: if you refresh your window the edit will show
> up.
>

No. It doesn't. The "edited" tag at the bottom shows up, but -- sometimes -- the edits themselves do not. I have tried reloading the page, going to the forum list and then clicking back down to the post, and going back to the edit page and then forward to the thread -- the edits, sometimes, just don't get recorded.
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Re: Do any of the "Political Posters" here have their own, well formed political opinions ?
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 08, 2006 07:03AM
x-uri,

I believe I've used the word "sycophant" correctly, but erred when I let it slide when cbelt didn't. I understood his thesis - that those who post links without comment are incapable of independent thought and moved into defense mode. I'm here for debate and to argue, hopefully within the "friendly" sense of "to advocate." I'm not a lawyer - I just play one on MacResource.

By engaging others in friendly debate (attempting to avoid the ad hominem form often seen here) I hope to keep my mind active. I live remotely and this is my major social contact. The alternative, sitting in a smokey local bar, provides both less stimulating mental competitors and potentially more dangerous physical ones. It's a game I sometimes lose, but I think it is sharpening my writing skills, though cbelt is right - it doesn't translate into head-to-head verbal acuity.

The more important question: why your edits aren't being recorded, is a mystery to me.
Good words to you, and thanks for correcting me. Letting an opponent misuse language with impunity is a self-defeating strategy.
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Re: Do any of the "Political Posters" here have their own, well formed political opinions ?
Posted by: billb
Date: March 08, 2006 06:16PM
Do any of the "Political Posters" here have their own, well formed political opinions ?

Yes, but it's rather obviously formed by others.
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Re: Do any of the "Political Posters" here have their own, well formed political opinions ?
Posted by: RgrF
Date: March 09, 2006 03:25AM
I don't usually engage. For the most part these threads don't either allow for or encourage it. I just tend to read and jumpin with a smart ass comment or as I like to think, a pity retort.

Either that or I end up duelling with the bot or Heck and thats a waste of pixles.

I seem to be leaving optimism behind or maybe I just see it being bludgeoned to death by the moral and political right.

I'm a bit old so while I see the loss of liberty as unfortunate, it will be absolutly deadly to those who follow and who'll bear the brunt of the authoritarian policies so much in favor today.

Sad to think the world ones progeny will live in will be worse in every way than the one we knew.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2006 03:35AM by RgrF.
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Re: Do any of the "Political Posters" here have their own, well formed political opinions ?
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 09, 2006 07:55AM
Our founders justified their rebellion saying people had the right and duty to throw off the shackles of abusive government. Unfortunately their worst fears have been fulfilled and we are once more under oppression. Whether we are willing to make sacrifices similar to those our founders did is the question.

"We are not to expect to be translated from despotism to liberty." said Tom Jefferson, "in a feather bed."
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Re: Do any of the "Political Posters" here have their own, well formed political opinions ?
Posted by: Seacrest
Date: March 09, 2006 11:06AM
Okay, let's do it. Let's stop defending the uppity status quo and, instead, implement a bold, new agenda for change. Let me get to the crux of the matter: People without their own political opinions once tried convincing me that people come before profits. Do they think I was born yesterday? I mean, it seems pretty obvious that we can't stop people without their own political opinions overnight. It takes time, patience and experience to work beyond the predatory plasticity of people without their own political opinions's musings. If people without their own political opinions truly believes that they are cunctipotent, then maybe they should enroll in Introduction to Reality 101.

Do you really want people without their own political opinions to provoke terrible, total, universal, and merciless destruction? I think not. Quite simply, people without their own political opinions insist that obscurity, evasiveness, incomprehensibility, indirectness, and ambiguity are marks of depth and brilliance. In the long run, however, they're only fooling themselves. People without their own political opinions would be better off if they just admitted to themselves that the question that's on everyone's mind these days is, "Will peeling back the onion of their uninformed vaporings cause them to shed tears or will it merely enhance their desire to make it impossible to disturb their unstable gravy train?" I've never gotten a clear and honest answer to that question from people without their own political opinions. But what is clear is that I want nothing more -- or less -- than to open students' eyes, minds, hearts, and souls to the world around them. To that task I have consecrated my life, and I invite you to do likewise. The hour is late indeed. Fortunately, it's not yet too late to think outside the box. To close, let me accentuate that if we subject people without their own political opinions's inclinations to the rigorous scrutiny they warrant, we shall not only survive people without their own political opinions's attacks; we shall prevail.
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Re: Do any of the "Political Posters" here have their own, well formed political opinions ?
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 09, 2006 12:26PM
Little in human work is without inspiration from previous work. If we were to eliminate all that constitutes our beliefs and works that was not derived from those who influenced us we would be extremely shallow and devoid of most constructive capability. The founders of our nation were influenced in part by the standards of the Iroquois Confederation, for instance.
[www.fsc.edu]

Just because something is not original thought doesn't mean it is not of value. Millions of people are restrained, inspired and made better by observance of maxims written down and passed forward from thousands of years ago.
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Re: Do any of the "Political Posters" here have their own, well formed political opinions ?
Posted by: $tevie
Date: March 09, 2006 01:41PM
I think a lot of this cut and paste got started because anytime somebody expresses an opinion, there is some a-hole who demands "a cite" or "a link" or "an attribution" or whatever. If folks were allowed to simply discuss things like we do in "real life" without all the requests for supporting documents, linking to articles might not have become so popular.

I really don't care either way. If someone links to some other site, I recognize the implicit comment: "I found this interesting and want to share it."
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Re: Do any of the "Political Posters" here have their own, well formed political opinions?
Posted by: incognegro
Date: March 15, 2006 09:36AM
sycophant = A servile* self-seeker who attempts to win favor by flattering influential people.

i'm not sure how that relates to someone who supposedly doesn't "have their own, well formed political opinions."

how is posting a link an attempt at flattery?

*(servile = Abjectly submissive; slavish)



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