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Cancer in a Can
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 29, 2006 01:12AM
"Benzene, linked to leukemia and other cancers of the blood, is created by the reaction of two common additives: sodium benzoate, a preservative, and ascorbic acid (vitamin C). Ignoring basic chemistry, major brands left the avoidable combo in many drinks, especially those featuring fruit juice or fortified with vitamin C to lure health-conscious parents."
[www.inthesetimes.com]
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: macaroo
Date: March 29, 2006 06:35AM
" The sky is falling, the sky is falling"!!!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2006 06:36AM by macaroo.
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 29, 2006 07:56AM
macaroo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> " The sky is falling, the sky is falling"!!!!!
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at 03/29/06 06:36AM by
> macaroo.

You had to edit that? Btw, the exclamation points go inside the quotes. But then you prefer ignorance to knowledge, otherwise you would have refuted the article rather than just insulting me.

So, how many cans of diet pop do you drink everyday?
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: davester
Date: March 29, 2006 09:19AM
Hydrogen fusion, linked to massive thermonuclear reactions that occur everyday on the sun, is created by the reaction of two atoms of hydrogen, an element of water. Ignoring basic chemistry, major brands left the avoidable element in many drinks, especially those featuring fruit juice or labelled as vitamin water to lure health-conscious parents.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: Jimmypoo
Date: March 29, 2006 09:26AM
Thoughts . . .

1. The objectivity of any organization devoted to "social, environmental and economic justice" is suspect in my book
2. Am dubious Na benzoate + ascorbic acid = "benzene"
3. Not sure what benzene limits are these days. Cynically, I'd say whatever the detection limit of a modern gc/mass spec is.
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: DharmaDog
Date: March 29, 2006 10:03AM
Coke Zero has neither sodium benzoate, nor ascorbic acid.

Nor does Diet Coke.

Diet Dr. Pepper does contain sodium benzoate, but not ascorbic acid.

Diet pepsi contains neither.

Those 4 probably make up 80% of diet cola unit shipments. And only Diet Coke, Diet Pepsi, and Diet Dr. Pepper make it into the top 10 cola drinks. I'm not going to make a career out of tracking down which diet cola drinks do actually contain these two chemicals, but obviously the big ones don't.


Next attempt at scare-mongering please.
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: davester
Date: March 29, 2006 10:13AM
Jimmypoo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thoughts . . .
>
> 1. The objectivity of any organization devoted to
> "social, environmental and economic justice" is
> suspect in my book

Agreed...propaganda site

> 2. Am dubious Na benzoate + ascorbic acid =
> "benzene"

I believe those are the ingredients for benzene, but you can't just mix them together to make benzene.

> 3. Not sure what benzene limits are these days.

Drinking water standards are 5 parts per billion federal, 1 part per billion California based on cancer risk, which hovers around 1-chance-in-a-million at those levels (based on crazily conservative estimates...the reality is more like 1 in 10 million or more).

> Next attempt at scare-mongering please.

Funny that refurb is using Karl Rove's playbook.




"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2006 10:14AM by davester.
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 29, 2006 10:29AM
Avoidable risk is unacceptable risk. Carcinogens cause cumulative damage. A single cigarette doesn't cause cancer. Why ingest these drinks when healthy alternatives are available? Diet drinks often contain aspartame, which has its own suspected health hazards. Why use these ingredients when they are controversial and healthy, natural alternatives exist? Why take the chance? Once the experts told us thalidomide & Agent Orange were safe, too.
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: DharmaDog
Date: March 29, 2006 10:50AM
So we disarmed your first argument and you want to shift this to a debate on aspartame now? And what are "suspected health hazards?" Sounds like more scare-mongering and accusations with no hard evidence. I can make accusations based on correlation without proof of causality, too. It's easy.

Let's pick one topic and stick with it.

>"Why use these ingredients when they are controversial and healthy, natural alternatives exist? "

Which diet drinks even contain these two chemicals? You article doesn't specify and I showed that most diet cola drinks (in terms of unit shipments) don't.


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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: March 29, 2006 11:07AM
[www.dhmo.org]
Each year, Dihydrogen Monoxide is a known causative component in many thousands of deaths and is a major contributor to millions upon millions of dollars in damage to property and the environment. Some of the known perils of Dihydrogen Monoxide are:
Death due to accidental inhalation of DHMO, even in small quantities.
Prolonged exposure to solid DHMO causes severe tissue damage.
Excessive ingestion produces a number of unpleasant though not typically life-threatening side-effects.
DHMO is a major component of acid rain.
Gaseous DHMO can cause severe burns.
Contributes to soil erosion.
Leads to corrosion and oxidation of many metals.
Contamination of electrical systems often causes short-circuits.
Exposure decreases effectiveness of automobile brakes.
Found in biopsies of pre-cancerous tumors and lesions.
Often associated with killer cyclones in the U.S. Midwest and elsewhere.
Thermal variations in DHMO are a suspected contributor to the El Nino weather effect.

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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: DharmaDog
Date: March 29, 2006 11:41AM
OK, I also just spoke with my wife about this who has a PhD in Chemistry and works for one of the largest chemical companies.

She said that while ascorbic acid is a strong antioxidant, which could inturn oxidize the -oate from the benzene ring, this isn't likely to happen just because they are present in the same solution. It's not that simple.

While her specialty is toxicology and deals with reactive oxygen species in human tissues constantly, it is not directly related to this issue. However I would bet she knows more about this than the people that wrote that article or anyone else posted thus far to this thread.

Summary of thread to this point:
1. Sodium Benzoate and ascorbic acid are not found together in the major diet colas. They may not be in any diet colas. We don't know. No one has provided an example.
2. While these two chemicals could produce benzene, it does not likely just happen because they encounter each other.
3. Benzene is not your buddy.
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 29, 2006 12:15PM
I didn't say diet drinks contain those chemicals. The article states:

"Pepsi, Coca-Cola, Kool-Aid (Kraft), Tropicana and Cadbury Schweppes all produce drinks that contain the potentially dangerous benzene-producing combo according to research by the Environmental Working Group (EWG). And a look at the NUFC Web site confirms that all of these companies are members of the trade group that pushed for the bill."

EWG:
[www.ewg.org]

According to links at their site the FDA says levels of benzene in such drinks are safe, so obviously they've detected the chemical. The question is whether you believe the FDA:
[www.ewg.org]

According to the above article -

"More than 1,500 soft drinks containing both sodium benzoate and ascorbic acid or citric acid have been launched across Europe, North America and Latin America since 2002... Glen Lawrence, a scientist who helped the FDA understand the problem with sodium benzoate and ascorbic acid in 1990, told BeverageDaily.com soft drinks companies should change their formulas.

“There is no good reason to add ascorbic acid (vitamin C) to soft drinks, and those that may have ascorbic acid naturally in them (juices) should not use sodium benzoate as a preservative. So it is really very easy to avoid the problem.""

Aspartame has been linked to cancer as well.
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: Seacrest
Date: March 29, 2006 01:28PM
This is the one time cbelt3 and I are in agreement.
BAN DHMO NOW!
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: DharmaDog
Date: March 29, 2006 01:30PM
You're right, You did not say "diet drinks". You just implied that with statements like:

>"So, how many cans of diet pop do you drink everyday?"
and
>"Diet drinks often contain aspartame, which has its own suspected health hazards."

And the article is so general that it must cover diet drinks. Yet neither the article, nor you have provided an example of a drink (diet or not) that does contain these two chemicals.

But I'll look at the major non-diet colas:
Coke has neither chemical.
Pepsi contains neither chemical.
Dr Pepper does contain sodium benzoate, but no ascorbic acid.

Maybe I should look at non-cola products:
Snapple looks OK (Cadbury-Schweppes)
Minutemaid nor Odwalla juices contain either chemical (Coca-Cola Co)
Sobe juice and tea products are clear. (PepsiCo)
Lipton Brisk Tea is clear. (PepsiCo)
Tropicana juices are clear (PepsiCo)
Mirinda drinks/juices are clear (PepsiCo)
Capri Sun is fine (Kraft)
Country Time Lemonade is clear (Kraft)
Crystal Light flavors may contain sodium benzoate (Kraft)
Kool-AId is fine, but some flavors may contain ascorbic acid, aka Vitamin C (Kraft)
Regular Tang powder mixes are fine (Kraft)

I did find three (3) drinks that have both:
Hawaiian Punch (Cadbury-Schweppes)
Crystal Light Sunrise Classic Orange (Kraft)
Tang Juice Drink Watermelon Wallup (Kraft)

And there you have it. I did not check every single product by each company listed in the article (if you want to cal it that), but at least I tried to see if there is any merit to these allegations rather than simply accepting them as truth. I think this small amount of homework shows that there isn't yet enough evidence to result in mass hysteria.

A few comments:
1. As you can see few drinks contain the two chemicals in question.
2. The drinks that do contain these two chemicals have a ridiculously small market share compared to the drinks that do not contain them.
3. I have not found a source that states definitively that sodium benzoate and ascorbic acid will yield benzene in a beverage.
4. Also it is possible that drinks containing levels of benzene (as mentioned in the article without naming the products) did not get it from these two chemicals. Remember Perrier's benzene fiasco?
5. It's sad that the article and the submitter would not provide specifics, and a potential target of the scare-mongering had to do it. If you're gonna put this stuff out there, support it. Don't expect us to just swallow it.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2006 01:32PM by DharmaDog.
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: March 29, 2006 02:01PM
It usually takes a rare earth metal catalyst, 800 psi of H2, and 650 F to enable the reaction to swap ions on benzene rings. The body does do strange things though, and equilibrium reactions can be written to prove that you make gasoline in your blood from eating any vegetable oil.

OTOH, if a benzoate and *ANY* other chemical in food results in an increase of benzene levels over 10 ppb more than without addition, I think it should be banned immediately.
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: davester
Date: March 29, 2006 02:02PM
Also note that benzene is the a common persistent aromatic hydrocarbon in groundwater that is contaminated due to gas station and refinery tank leaks, and thus is fairly common in urban areas. Even with extensive cleanup, it is present (along with many other compounds) at very low concentrations in drinking water in some areas (after all, the drinking water standard is higher than the detection level in most states. Although somewhat unlikely, it is completely possible that benzene detected in some of those soda drinks was derived from the water that was used in its production.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: DharmaDog
Date: March 29, 2006 02:08PM
What davester said. I was alluding to that in my last post.

Benzene coming from the water used to make the drinks is more worrying than the presence of sodium benzoate and vitamin C in a very small number of drinks.
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 29, 2006 02:15PM
I'm glad some experts have chimed in to correct me on this issue. I have no such expertise and came across an article that concerned me. My recent breakup with a screaming banshee who guzzled diet Pepsi and chewed Orbit gum constantly has colored my opinion of junk foods. We are fouling our nest as a species, and taking many others down with us.
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: BigGuynRusty
Date: March 29, 2006 02:59PM
Refurbvirgin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm glad some experts have chimed in to correct me
> on this issue. I have no such expertise and came
> across an article that concerned me. My recent
> breakup with a screaming banshee who guzzled diet
> Pepsi and chewed Orbit gum constantly has colored
> my opinion of junk foods. We are fouling our nest
> as a species, and taking many others down with us.


RefurbyLoki, are you paranoid by nature or nurture?

What I mean is, were you born this way, or do you have an enormous amount of free time on your hands?

Something else that just popped into my head, since you admitted in a past thread that you partook in herb smoking in your past, couldn't smoking that herbage have messed with your neural pathways?
Also, I have observed that "Screaming Banshees", have always been "Screaming Banshees", but boys (Boys can be any age, it is a matter of maturity) tend to overlook this situation while the blood that usually resides in the brain, moves south to the nether regions, once the blood starts staying in the brain, all of a sudden, the boy can hear and see again and realize he screwed up, and has to blame someone or something for his mistake.

BGnR
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: Seacrest
Date: March 29, 2006 03:01PM
Refurbvirgin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My recent breakup with a screaming banshee...

I doubt I am the only one here who finds glorious irony in this statement.
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: BigGuynRusty
Date: March 29, 2006 03:11PM
Seacrest Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Refurbvirgin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > My recent breakup with a screaming banshee...
Seacrest Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I doubt I am the only one here who finds glorious
> irony in this statement.


LOL! That very thought was going through my head!

But, I do enjoy having ReFurbyLoki around, he is the ugly girl that cute girls hang out with for two reasons, to keep the non-worthy boys away (Guard Dog), and to make them look much cuter in comparison.

Also, even in the worst of times I can point to him and say, "Thank the lords, I am not him!"

BGnR
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 29, 2006 05:36PM
BigGuynRusty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ... since you admitted in a past thread that you
> partook in herb smoking in your past, couldn't
> smoking that herbage have messed with your neural
> pathways?

My usage was light in comparison to the Vietnam vets I hung out with, and only because they were into it. Unlike our President I was never alcohol or cocaine addicted, and never had a d.u.i. Some of those Vietnam vets are now wealthy real estate developers and entrepreneurs, so if my neural pathways are indeed abnormal you can't blame it on cannabis. They continue to smoke, btw, and I haven't for over 30 years.

> Also, I have observed that "Screaming Banshees",
> have always been "Screaming Banshees", but boys
> (Boys can be any age, it is a matter of maturity)
> tend to overlook this situation while the blood
> that usually resides in the brain, moves south to
> the nether regions, once the blood starts staying
> in the brain, all of a sudden, the boy can hear
> and see again and realize he screwed up, and has
> to blame someone or something for his mistake.

She was very pretty and had learned she could get away with it. I hope I taught her otherwise.
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 29, 2006 05:42PM
BigGuynRusty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>... he is
> the ugly girl that cute girls hang out with for
> two reasons, to keep the non-worthy boys away
> (Guard Dog), and to make them look much cuter in
> comparison.

So you're saying you got in touch with your female side through this exchange?

> Also, even in the worst of times I can point to
> him and say, "Thank the lords, I am not him!"

Which lords do you worship? Are you a Hare Krishna?


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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: Effin Haole
Date: March 30, 2006 11:26AM
Seacrest Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Refurbvirgin Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > My recent breakup with a screaming banshee...
>
> I doubt I am the only one here who finds glorious
> irony in this statement.


I was thinking grand and glorious myself.
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 30, 2006 11:37AM
Effin Haole Wrote:
> I was thinking grand and glorious myself.

If you've EVER had a grand and glorious thought you've never expressed it here.


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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 30, 2006 11:43AM
Another theory I'd like to propose for your dissection and amusement/enragement is that drinking acidic liquids from aluminum cans may increase the amount of aluminum in your system. Autopsies on Alzheimer's patients have found high levels of aluminum plaques in the brain, perhaps causing neural short circuits.

It's also been theorized that phosphoric acid in colas drives calcium out of the bones, making it especially bad for women. causing osteoporosis.

Better safe than sorry. If you don't have any other choice for liquid sustenance then by all means enjoy your canned drinks, but if safer alternatives exist, why chance it?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2006 11:44AM by Refurbvirgin.
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: Seacrest
Date: March 30, 2006 01:15PM
(Refurbvirgin * irony) + Red Vines = Crazy Delicious!
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: DharmaDog
Date: March 30, 2006 01:49PM
From the Alzheimer's society:
[www.alzheimers.org.uk]

"Aluminium and Alzheimer's disease

A number of environmental factors have been put forward as possible contributory causes of Alzheimer's disease in some people. Among these is aluminium.

There is circumstantial evidence linking this metal with Alzheimer's disease but no causal relationship has yet been proved. As evidence for other causes continues to grow, a possible link with aluminium seems increasingly unlikely.

This information sheet looks at the circumstantial evidence and current medical and scientific views.

Researchers believe that, in the majority of those affected, Alzheimer's disease results from a combination of different risk factors rather than a single cause."



From the Nation Institutes of Health:
[www.niehs.nih.gov]

"Question: I have heard that aluminum may be involved in the development of Alzheimer's Disease. Does use of aluminum cookware and drinking from aluminum beverage cans place me at greater risk for developing this disease.

Answer: Aluminum is one of the most abundant elements found in the environment. Therefore, human exposure to this metal is common and unavoidable. However, intake is relatively low because this element is highly insoluble in many of its naturally occurring forms. The significance of environmental contact with aluminum is further diminished by the fact that less than 1% of that taken into the body orally is absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract."
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: Effin Haole
Date: March 30, 2006 02:17PM
<snicker>
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 30, 2006 05:34PM
DharmaDog Wrote:
> Researchers believe that, in the majority of those
> affected, Alzheimer's disease results from a
> combination of different risk factors rather than
> a single cause."

Go to a thrift store, and look around at used aluminum pots. You'll see lots of pits. Where did that material go?

Why not reduce your intake?
Btw, I've read that more people get into trouble with stainless steel because of the nickel ingestion, so I try to use cast iron when possible.

> From the Nation Institutes of Health:

> Therefore,
> human exposure to this metal is common and
> unavoidable. However, intake is relatively low
> because this element is highly insoluble in many
> of its naturally occurring forms.

See above aluminum pot observation. Acidic foods, such as tomato sauce and coffee erode these pots, putting a higher concentration of aluminum in your diet, and it's bound with molecules that are more easily assimilable.

The significance
> of environmental contact with aluminum is further
> diminished by the fact that less than 1% of that
> taken into the body orally is absorbed from the
> gastrointestinal tract."

So why not diminish your intake to reduce the volume that 1% represents?

Why isn't this common sense?


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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: HeyDude
Date: April 02, 2006 04:11AM
cbelt3 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Death due to accidental inhalation of Da HMO, even
> in small quantities.
> Prolonged exposure to solid HMO causes severe
> tissue damage.
> Excessive ingestion produces a number of
> unpleasant though not typically life-threatening
> side-effects.
> Da HMO is a major component of acid rain.
> Gaseous HMO can cause severe burns.
> Contributes to soil erosion.
> Leads to corrosion and oxidation of many metals.
> Contamination of electrical systems often causes
> short-circuits.
> Exposure decreases effectiveness of automobile
> brakes.
> Found in biopsies of pre-cancerous tumors and
> lesions.
> Often associated with killer cyclones in the U.S.
> Midwest and elsewhere.
> Thermal variations in Da HMO are a suspected
> contributor to the El Nino weather effect.
>
>

I always knew HMO would be the death of us all
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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: HeyDude
Date: April 02, 2006 04:23AM
DharmaDog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What davester said. I was alluding to that in my
> last post.
>
> Benzene coming from the water used to make the
> drinks is more worrying than the presence of
> sodium benzoate and vitamin C in a very small
> number of drinks.

Years ago, Dr. Pepper contained polyethylene glycol. If you google this susbstance, you'll see it's used in almost everything & everywhere. Internet Experts can't even agree on whether it IS antifreeze or not.



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Re: Cancer in a Can
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: April 02, 2006 12:58PM
What this world needs is snacks that are good for us but don't taste that way. I'm currently working on a broccoli-flavored soft drink: Broccola®.
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