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U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: April 02, 2006 02:09PM
Powerful video:
[informationclearinghouse.info]
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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Guitarman
Date: April 02, 2006 04:57PM
go away loki.



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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Date: April 02, 2006 06:54PM

Vote for your favourite now

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I Will Knot

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[www.killsometime.com]
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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: April 02, 2006 08:48PM
Ultimately what stopped the Vietnam war was troops refusing to leave their barracks. Their officers had to negotiate with them to get them to do anything. That's when the elites knew the war is lost. If more guys and gals come back from the killing fields and tell it like it is, more will be willing to refuse to fight this illegal war, and fewer will sign up to do the killing to begin with.

I support Sgt. Kevin Benderman and other G.I.'s who have the courage to confront their evil commander-in-chief and just say no to this war.
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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Guitarman
Date: April 02, 2006 09:12PM
oh please in your dreams.



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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: April 02, 2006 10:57PM
Free Benderman/ Jail Bush
[www.topia.net]
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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Guitarman
Date: April 03, 2006 09:16AM
take a vacation.



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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: April 03, 2006 10:01AM
I had 13 kids I went to high school with killed for Johnson's lies and swore I'd never be silently complicit with another liar's war (as my parents generation was). What are you doing to end the war, G'man?
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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Guitarman
Date: April 03, 2006 12:13PM
Taking a vacation and voting democratic.



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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: April 03, 2006 01:12PM
Voting Democratic is NOT going to stop the war. Kerry wanted to send MORE troops. So do Biden and Hillary.

The Dems released their midterm election strategy that essentially says they will fight the war smarter, not stop it.
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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Guitarman
Date: April 03, 2006 01:26PM
Unfortunately you can't just stop the war right now. It's too complicated now. If maniacs like you hadn't of turned off middle America, perhaps we would still at least have congress and this war wouldn't have happened, or at least there would be some inquiries now. But nuts like you and the whole gay marriage thing have skewed this country irrevocably to the right. And I don't like it.



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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: April 03, 2006 01:52PM
That's like saying you can't run out of a burning house because there are too many fires breaking out, so you have to keep pouring fuel on it in hopes that will somehow help. Our presence is fueling the civil war because we're supporting one side of it. This is leading to regional war, as Sunnis in Jordan come to the aid of their Iraqi brethren. Bush may well have started WW4 (the cold war was WW3). If you think this is going to work out well for Israel you're very naive.

I never advocated gay marriage. Or any other kind of marriage for that matter. The Dems lost the people's trust because Bill Clinton couldn't keep it in his pants and disgraced the White House. Remember that the Dems in Congress voted FOR the war, and every subsequent increase in funds to fight it. They voted FOR giving Bush war powers, the PATRIOT Act, NAFTA, and most other Republican scams. Simply electing Democrats isn't going to change anything.

RFK, Jr. is right:
"90% of the Republicans are corrupt and 75% of the Democrats."

America skewed to the right because the Dems couldn't come up with an effective strategy to prevent unwanted pregnancies, and focused on abortion as the fix. Most people are repulsed by abortion and despite the fact Bush's war kills more fetuses (and born children) than any abortionist they still won't vote FOR abortion rights. The hypocrisy of Democrats support for sanctions that killed half a million Iraqi kids (I know, for you they're untermenschen) reviled me, so I worked for Nader in 2000. In 2004 I succumbed to the ABB mentality and voted for Kerry, knowing full well he wouldn't stop the war either, but at least I could throw "how do you ask a soldier to be the last to die for a lie" back in his face when he continued to pour blood and treasure down that rat hole. Don't blame me for the Democraps failures. They have no one to blame but themselves. With the exception of a few like Dennis Kucinich and maybe Russ Feingold they are conscienceless and spineless opportunists. My own state senators, Murray and Cantfeel, two women, are especially loathsome for their support for war to profit Boeing and their other military contractor buddies. I'm sick of supporting the lesser evil merely to avoid the greater one, as the difference has become increasingly slim.
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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Keef
Date: April 03, 2006 02:10PM
Just curious, Loki – what do YOU think the best solution is?

~



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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Guitarman
Date: April 03, 2006 02:39PM
If I follow your way of thinking, then there is no solution other than some sort of a revolution. No loki, i'ts thinking like yours that has led to the republican dominated government we have today. Now how will you change it, so that it can be different.



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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: April 03, 2006 02:56PM
Keef -
I see no good outcomes from this, but staying there will make any eventual outcome worse.

Under the UN charter despotic regimes that abuse their people can be removed, but if we'd gone the route of pleading regime removal on humanitarian grounds we would have had to explain our support for regimes that have worse human rights records, such as China. If the U.S. didn't have a history of overthrowing democracy (e.g.Iran, Guatemala, Chile) we'd have more credibility as an appropriate agent of change for good.

There will be massive bloodshed if we leave Iraq, no doubt. There is already, and we are causing much of it. Our 12 years of sanctions after '91 alone killed a million and a half Iraqis, including half a million kids, which the Democrats, according to our Sec'y of State, thought were "worth it" to kill "because it showed sanctions were working." Since the war began estimates of those who've lost their lives prematurely and unjustly (as any life lost to illegal war is unjust) range from Bush's admitted 30,000 to half a million. Things will no doubt get worse if we leave, but they will get worse if we stay.

G'man -
Again I don't know what the solutions are, but I know the Democrats, at least those sponsored by the DLC and DCCC, are firmly in the same corporate pockets the Republican warmongers are. We are seeing the fruits of ignoring Ike's warnings about the military industrial complex, which sees war as the route to profit.

Throughout history the power of corporations has conflicted with the notion of government of, by, and for the people.

Benito Mussolini:
Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because
it is a merger of State and corporate power.

Franklin D. Roosevelt:
The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the
growth of private power to the point where it becomes stronger
than the democratic state itself. That in its essence is fascism
- ownership of government by an individual, by a group or any
controlling private power. Among us today a concentration of
private power without equal in history is growing.

Thomas Jefferson:
I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed
corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a
trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country.

Abraham Lincoln:
The money powers prey upon the nation in times of peace and
conspire against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic
than a monarchy, more insolent than autocracy and more selfish
than a bureaucracy. It denounces, as public enemies, all who
question its methods or throw light upon its crimes. I have two
great enemies, the Southern Army in front of me and the bankers
in the rear. Of the two, the one at the rear is my greatest foe.

I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me
and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a
result of the war, corporations have been enthroned ... An era
of corruption in high places will follow and the money power will
endeavor to prolong its reign by working on the prejudices of the
people... until wealth is aggregated in a few hands ... and the
Republic is destroyed.

Theodore Roosevelt:
Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible
government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no
responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible
government, to befoul the unholy alliance between corrupt
business and corrupt politics is the first task of the
statesmanship of today.

Franklin D. Roosevelt:
The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a
financial element in the large centers has owned the government
ever since the days of Andrew Jackson.

Dwight D. Eisenhower, from his farewell address, 1961:
In the councils of government, we must guard against unwarranted
influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial
complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power
exists and will persist.


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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: April 03, 2006 03:13PM
I think the least carnage might result from appealing to the UN to establish a multinational peace-establishing force derived from Muslim Arabic-speaking nations with which Iraq has had no history of conflict (if any can be found, and would be willing to step into the inferno we've created). The American style of winner-takes-all "democracy" won't work obviously in a society so deeply rancorous from generations of abuse of power by the Sunnis under Saddam. It's true that if we step out the Iranians will step in, and Jordan and other Sunni states may feel the need to intercede to counter the Shia juggernaut we've created. Simply staying the course will only continue to stoke the fires of resentment against us, increasing both terrorist attacks on the U.S. as well as the rolls of American dead soldiers in a no-win situation.

The Iraqi nation is a fictional concept and was drawn on a map of the Ottoman Empire after WW1 by the British, without regard for ethnic, cultural or religious differences, and perhaps the best solution is in dividing the nation into Kurd, Shia, and Sunni zones, autonomous but sharing equally in the country's oil wealth, perhaps on the basis of a UN census to assure per capita fairness.

I don't know if that would work or not, but it should be obvious that our plan to establish democracy by bombing the country into submission isn't working. "When you realize you're stuck in a hole the first thing to do is stop digging."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2006 03:19PM by Refurbvirgin.
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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Guitarman
Date: April 03, 2006 03:15PM
this answer is why your rhetoric runs in circles and leads to the republican take over we have now. Just as the nuts in chicago helped get nixon elected, nuts like you are responsible for bush and the war.



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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: April 03, 2006 03:22PM
D.C. Democrats' conspiracy of the soulless
"... you don't need to be a conspiracy theorist to see that, in fact, gutting the party's conviction-based soul is a deliberate, calculated strategy emanating from the nation's capital... To be a Democrat, Emanuel says, means not having to actually support any platform of basic, kitchen-table issues at all. Just call yourself a Democrat no matter what your positions are on any core issue - even health care, jobs, trade, the environment - and presto - you are welcomed into the fold by the Washington cabal."
[www.workingforchange.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2006 03:24PM by Refurbvirgin.
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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Guitarman
Date: April 03, 2006 04:00PM
so then what do you advocate, nutski?



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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: April 03, 2006 04:24PM
As an American my first loyalty is to my fellow Americans. ~70% of our troops in Iraq say we should get out this year. I support our troops.
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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: April 03, 2006 04:29PM
Actually I think the declining poll numbers for the Republicans will mandate a troop withdrawal before the fall elections, unless, of course, the HAVA e-voting machines are properly programmed to eliminate the risk of a fair election. The neocons want to bomb Iran and unlike Iraq they haven't been disarmed so the risk of ballistic missiles raining down on the Green Zone are high. In order to pull of their next regime change they're going to have to remove what's left of the army to safer ground, out of range. Attacking Iran will also immediately bring a call for jihad from the Shia mullahs in Iraq. If you think suicide bombers have been plentiful you ain't seen nothing yet.
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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: April 03, 2006 04:32PM
On the other hand the GAO has successfully brought large quantities of nuclear material, suitable for making a dirty bomb, through Canadian customs, so the likelihood another terrorist attack will cause Americans to wet their pants and vote Republican can't be discounted. Bush knew Al Qaeda was planning to hijack airliners and did nothing because the PNAC salivated for "another Pearl Harbor" to get the American people behind their generational war for world hegemony. They need to wag the dog again.
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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Guitarman
Date: April 03, 2006 04:34PM
so if the republicans were behind it, why not help the democrats to win?



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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: April 03, 2006 04:41PM
You gotta get over this delusion that we live in a two-party system. The majority of the Dems are Bush-lites owned by the same corporations. Simply voting for a Democrat, if they then vote with the Republicans, doesn't change anything.
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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Guitarman
Date: April 03, 2006 05:14PM
so then it's hopeless, why not just leave the country?



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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: April 03, 2006 06:07PM
I've considered it, but I'm too old to start over somewhere else. Where would I go anyway? I'm here for the duration.
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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Guitarman
Date: April 03, 2006 06:13PM
So you really think there's no difference between the parties? DO you really think that had Gore been elected and 9/11 happened he would've invaded Iraq as well? You think he would've passed the same tax cuts and spent the country into debt like this?



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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: April 03, 2006 10:07PM
I think the corporate elite control both parties. The 12 years of sanctions were maintained under a Democrat who made regime change official U.S. policy via executive signing. The Dems thought that they could make the people suffer so much they'd rise up an overthrow him, but they are no more averse to using violence to achieve their corporate masters aims, e.g. bombing Serbia using depleted uranium and destroying civilian targets in violation of the Geneva Conventions.

The problem is the system which requires massive wealth to run for office, so candidates have to make promises to the oligarchy and then keep them if they want to be reelected.
The oligarchy play good cop/bad cop with the electorate. After Bush 1's reign of terror Clinton looked so good that most Dems sat down and said "this is the best we can do." The rich may have not gotten quite so rich quite so fast, but when Bill pardoned Marc Rich you saw where his true allegiances laid.

Edit:
In answer to your question, yes the Democrats at least spread the burden of government more equitably over the classes. Bush's indebted future generations for the benefit of today's wealthy. Both parties sadly believe in manifest destiny and that the American elite are mandated to rule the world.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2006 02:28AM by Refurbvirgin.
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Re: U.S. Iraq vets apologize & denounce Bush
Posted by: Guitarman
Date: April 03, 2006 10:43PM
take a vacation.



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