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Are you agnostic?
Posted by: RgrF
Date: August 08, 2010 03:54AM
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Let's get one thing straight: Agnosticism is not some kind of weak-tea atheism. Agnosticism is not atheism or theism. It is radical skepticism, doubt in the possibility of certainty, opposition to the unwarranted certainties that atheism and theism offer.
Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: Mike Sellers
Date: August 08, 2010 06:45AM
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Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: michaelb
Date: August 08, 2010 06:54AM
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Indeed agnostics see atheism as "a theism"—as much a faith-based creed as the most orthodox of the religious variety.
Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: JoeH
Date: August 08, 2010 07:02AM
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Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: RgrF
Date: August 08, 2010 07:07AM
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Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: Doc
Date: August 08, 2010 07:14AM
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Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: michaelb
Date: August 08, 2010 07:15AM
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Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: RgrF
Date: August 08, 2010 07:24AM
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Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: Doc
Date: August 08, 2010 07:44AM
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Quote
michaelb
It may be a semantic question. I don't accept the Thomas Aquinas formulation that belief in the lack of god is similar to the belief in god. Maybe one is a rational belief system and one is a spiritual belief system, but as belief systems, they are fundamentally different. Not believing is not at all like believing.
Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: davester
Date: August 08, 2010 07:52AM
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wikipedia on atheism
Writers disagree how best to define and classify atheism, contesting what supernatural entities it applies to, whether it is an assertion in its own right or merely the absence of one, and whether it requires a conscious, explicit rejection. A variety of categories have been proposed to try to distinguish the different forms of atheism.
Some of the ambiguity and controversy involved in defining atheism arises from difficulty in reaching a consensus for the definitions of words like deity and god. The plurality of wildly different conceptions of god and deities leads to differing ideas regarding atheism's applicability. The ancient Romans accused Christians of being atheists for not worshiping the pagan deities. In the 20th century, this view fell into disfavor as theism came to be understood as encompassing belief in any divinity.
With respect to the range of phenomena being rejected, atheism may counter anything from the existence of a deity, to the existence of any spiritual, supernatural, or transcendental concepts, such as those of Hinduism and Buddhism
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wikipedia on agnosticism:
Demographic research services normally list agnostics in the same category as atheists and/or non-religious people. Some sources use agnostic in the sense of noncommittal. Agnosticism often overlaps with other belief systems. Agnostic theists identify themselves both as agnostics and as followers of particular religions, viewing agnosticism as a framework for thinking about the nature of belief and their relation to revealed truths. Some nonreligious people, such as author Philip Pullman, identify as both agnostic and atheist.
Thomas Henry Huxley defined the term:
Agnosticism is not a creed but a method, the essence of which lies in the vigorous application of a single principle... Positively the principle may be expressed as in matters of intellect, do not pretend conclusions are certain that are not demonstrated or demonstrable.
Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: RgrF
Date: August 08, 2010 08:49AM
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Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: Rolando
Date: August 08, 2010 09:53AM
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Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: Greg
Date: August 08, 2010 02:58PM
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Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: hal
Date: August 08, 2010 03:24PM
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My mom use to have a little dog that was always barking at the back fence.Quote
Greg
That one cannot prove that a thing does not exist is not sufficient reason to assert it may exist.
Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: Don Kiyoti
Date: August 08, 2010 04:53PM
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Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: Pops
Date: August 08, 2010 05:53PM
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Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: $tevie
Date: August 08, 2010 06:29PM
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Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: davester
Date: August 08, 2010 06:39PM
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Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: davester
Date: August 08, 2010 06:48PM
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$tevie
I find an atheist trumpeting their superior intellect and mocking those who have faith just as obnoxious as a fundamentalist, frankly.
Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: $tevie
Date: August 08, 2010 07:00PM
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Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: davester
Date: August 08, 2010 07:45PM
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$tevie
If I had any interest, which I don't, I guarantee I can find some pretty snotty remarks from the atheists around here
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$tevie
"refuse to use their own faculties to enlighten themselves"? Excuse me, davester, we are discussing faith. You can't practice faith by going around seeking to disprove your own faith -- that's no longer faith.
Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: $tevie
Date: August 08, 2010 07:55PM
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Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: Kiva
Date: August 09, 2010 02:09AM
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Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: August 09, 2010 08:00AM
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Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: kanesa
Date: August 09, 2010 09:19AM
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Kiva
Personally, I see myself as wavering between agnosticism and a deep spirituality. Depends on the moment. I don't believe in any sort of personalized god, but I also believe our consciousness is part of something greater than our understanding. I also totally accept that my belief may, in the end, turn out to be completely wrong.
My own searching has found a commonality that binds us all together. It may not even be supernatural. It may just be an experience/energy/force that science just hasn't completely measured yet. Even then, I doubt they'll be able to explain where it came from. I'm rambling a bit here, but I think that as one moves through the Stages of Faith, it becomes more difficult to explain and is more based on experience. I believe spirituality is best found in our relationships with others and our world and the embracing of paradox and connectedness. I know that sounds a bit new-agey, but, it's not.
kiva
Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: the_poochies
Date: August 09, 2010 09:36AM
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Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: $tevie
Date: August 09, 2010 10:21AM
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Quote
Kiva
the ego-centric anthropomorphism in thinking of 'god'
Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: neophyte
Date: August 09, 2010 10:49AM
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Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: robfilms
Date: August 09, 2010 12:33PM
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Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: the_poochies
Date: August 09, 2010 01:56PM
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neophyte
Agnostic, yes.
"Personally, if I didn't believe in a benevolent creator and the promise of immortality, I probably would be a very nihilistic, selfish person only concerned with my own short-term pleasure. After all, once I die, the game is over so I would try having as much fun as possible while I am here on earth and to heck with everybody else."
Seems to me that the above statement is the reason for some religions: To guide us in how to behave towards one-another. The 'do unto others...' thing. But some religions add a carrot-stick idea - immortality. Why? I'm agnostic, but I still treat others in a moral manner with no reward expected. I just feel its 'the right thing to do'. I never have a guilty conscience and I sleep well every night.
Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: davester
Date: August 09, 2010 01:58PM
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Quote
the_poochies
Personally, if I didn't believe in a benevolent creator and the promise of immortality, I probably would be a very nihilistic, selfish person only concerned with my own short-term pleasure. After all, once I die, the game is over so I would try having as much fun as possible while I am here on earth and to heck with everybody else.
Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: the_poochies
Date: August 09, 2010 02:39PM
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Quote
davester
Quote
the_poochies
Personally, if I didn't believe in a benevolent creator and the promise of immortality, I probably would be a very nihilistic, selfish person only concerned with my own short-term pleasure. After all, once I die, the game is over so I would try having as much fun as possible while I am here on earth and to heck with everybody else.
Wow!! That's a very honest and somewhat shocking statement, poochies. I don't believe in a creator or immortality and I'm nothing like that. I feel that I'd like to leave a legacy for my children and others to think about after I have gone to oblivion, and I would not get joy from leading a completely selfish life while still here because we are social animals and I treasure the good feelings people have about me. Are you really sure you'd feel that way without the crutch of immortality? Perhaps you're thinking that way now because with god's judgement and immortality omnipresent, you've never had to think beyond that for reasons to avoid nihilism and selfishness. I think the reason humans are not nihilistic and selfish in general has nothing to do with religion. It has everything to do with evolution. Our species would never have survived long enough to even develop superstition if we were completely nihilistic selfish creatures in the absence of religious rewards and threats. As an aside, look at the bonobos. They are the closest human relative and have no religion, yet live in social groups where compassion, altruism, mutual support, etc are a significant part of their lives. These values seem necessary for preserving social species like our own.
Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: davester
Date: August 09, 2010 03:33PM
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the_poochies
But isn't "he (or she) who dies with the most toys wins" a popular outlook on life my a significant number of people?
Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: billb
Date: August 09, 2010 04:16PM
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Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: Jimmypoo
Date: August 09, 2010 08:05PM
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Re: Are you agnostic?
Posted by: Pops
Date: August 10, 2010 08:35AM
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I couldn't disagree more with that statement. I tend to agree that perhaps that conclusion is, in itself, a product of the brainwashing of most religions.Quote
the_poochies
Personally, if I didn't believe in a benevolent creator and the promise of immortality, I probably would be a very nihilistic, selfish person only concerned with my own short-term pleasure. After all, once I die, the game is over so I would try having as much fun as possible while I am here on earth and to heck with everybody else.