Obama supports plan for mosque near ground zero

This ought to be good fodder for the next round of Birther fund-raising letters.

Considering the other things he has thrown his support behind that have failed (Olmpics in Chicago, campaigning for others)
The presidential plan may be to support this and watch it fail too.

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I'm not a bad guy! I work hard, and I love my kids. So why should I spend half my Sunday hearing about how I'm going to Hell? -Homer.

I think it's fine for a mosque to go up near the WTC memorial.

...Just so long as the people running the joint recognize that they have to accommodate and educate visitors of various faiths, genders and varieties of clothing in deference to the historic nature of the location.

Yeah, the right is gleeful. As usual, for the wrong reasons.

Obama actually said Muslims "have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country," "That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in Lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances."

And: "This is America. And our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable."

Private property rights! Dang Socialist president!

Of course the Right dismissed sensitivity outright when the NRA chose to hold their annual convention within miles of and soon after the Columbine massacre. They had no problem with hurt feelings then!

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Doc
I think it's fine for a mosque to go up near the WTC memorial.

...Just so long as the people running the joint recognize that they have to accommodate and educate visitors of various faiths, genders and varieties of clothing in deference to the historic nature of the location.

So much of this is still unknown, to me in any case, and I am sure Obama as well but it didn't matter. He just had to give us another lecture on tolerance. Of course sensitivity of the people of New York matters not one bit.

-How did they come in possession of that building in the first place?
-How much did it cost and who paid? For that location it must cost a fortune.
-Do they plan to tear it down?
-What will it look like? An office building or a traditional mosque?
-Who will build it? Which union shop will actually swing the hammer for it?
-What will it cost and who will pay for it?
-Is it open to all faiths? Meaning can women just walk in? How about gays?

I have plenty more but my point is that the reactionaries here who automatically come to the defense of whatever the right opposes probably have no answer either. I personally don't care if they build one but I'd like to know a lot more. The fact that the Imam has never spoken about the controversy is itself telling.

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After you discover you're riding a dead horse, your best strategy is to dismount.

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Don Kiyoti
Obama actually said Muslims "have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country," "That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in Lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances."

Yes they do. There are also a few things I like to call the freedom of speech and freedom of assembly.

There are also a few things I like to call the freedom of speech and freedom of assembly.

WTF are you talking about?

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So much... is still unknown, to me in any case

Understatement of the year.

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Don Kiyoti
There are also a few things I like to call the freedom of speech and freedom of assembly.

WTF are you talking about?

If any group doesn't want a mosque, church, building, 7-11, community center, strip mall, gas station, or any other structure built, they are free to protest.

Nobody said they weren't.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2010 01:10AM by Don Kiyoti.

But nobody is disputing anyone's right to protest or free speech...

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Don Kiyoti
Nobody said they weren't.

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Greg
But nobody is disputing anyone's right to protest or free speech...

Really? Every statement I have seen about the people protesting is always framed as religious intolerance or just plain hatred. And before someone says "Those aren't mutually exclusive", yes they are. When someone or group is painted as racist or intolerant, no one listens to them.

Then everyone is exercising their free speech, aren't they?

I mean, if I say something which I believe to be true, and you say I'm a racist bigot...well, you can do that, right?

That's pretty funny.

And in full disclosure, I can see where the opposition is coming from.

Edit: I just saw the little towers. That's pretty good!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2010 01:51AM by Greg.

The issue here is not free speech of the protesters. That's a red herring.

This is about using the influence of the government, in this case, the permit process of the city of New York, to interfere with the expression of religion, in this case, build a house of worship, and a squash court.

How can the right, including the religious right, be so FREAKING tone deaf as not to see the implications of this? Where the hell are their principals??



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/14/2010 06:46AM by Acer.

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Dakota
-How did they come in possession of that building in the first place?
-How much did it cost and who paid? For that location it must cost a fortune.
-Do they plan to tear it down?
-What will it look like? An office building or a traditional mosque?
-Who will build it? Which union shop will actually swing the hammer for it?
-What will it cost and who will pay for it?
-Is it open to all faiths? Meaning can women just walk in? How about gays?

Irrelevant. As long as it meets code and zoning regs, the rest is really none of your business.

Nice to see Dakota worried about jobs for union members!

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lafinfil
Nice to see Dakota worried about jobs for union members!

Not to mention the rights of women and gays. And architectural preservation in Manhattan. So many traditionally librull issues!

Doesn't appear to be just the religious right that's complaining about it.
Probably a good excuse to impart some faux outrage, though.

Maybe the Westboro guys should buy it.

That might be less controversial...

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Acer

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Dakota
-How did they come in possession of that building in the first place?
-How much did it cost and who paid? For that location it must cost a fortune.
-Do they plan to tear it down?
-What will it look like? An office building or a traditional mosque?
-Who will build it? Which union shop will actually swing the hammer for it?
-What will it cost and who will pay for it?
-Is it open to all faiths? Meaning can women just walk in? How about gays?

Irrelevant. As long as it meets code and zoning regs, the rest is really none of your business.

Anything to avoid the questions. The fact that you are not the least bit curious just shows where you are coming from. Keep hiding behind zoning laws.

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After you discover you're riding a dead horse, your best strategy is to dismount.

I think we should hold out until the Muslims to let a Jewish temple or Catholic cathedral be built in Mecca or Medina.

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If you don't stand for something, you'll probably fall for anything.t

Seriously, can a mosque restrict who can or cannot enter their premises based on attire, sex, religious orientation etc? If so, we have the seeds of sharia law in our society. And there are millions who fled their countries just for this reason.

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After you discover you're riding a dead horse, your best strategy is to dismount.

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swampy
I think we should hold out until the Muslims to let a Jewish temple or Catholic cathedral be built in Mecca or Medina.

Because after all, we're just as theocratic as they are, right?

Liberty. You either believe it, or you don't. And it matters most when the beneficiary of the liberty is a person with whom you disagree.
Now is a perfect time to see who does believe in liberty, and who does not.

"Muslims have the right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country," Obama told a White House dinner crowd celebrating the Muslim holy month of Ramadan Friday.

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who has defended the 13-story, $100 million Islamic center, said Obama's remarks reminded him of George Washington.

"Two hundred and twenty years ago this week, the Father of Our Country penned his famous letter to the Jewish Community of Newport Rhode Island or, as he called them, 'the Children of the Stock of Abraham.' President Obama's words tonight evoked President Washington's own August reminder that 'all possess alike liberty,'" Bloomberg said.

Grace..."Because after all, we're just as theocratic as they are, right?"

Because after all, they are just as tolerant as we are.

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If you don't stand for something, you'll probably fall for anything.t

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Dakota
Seriously, can a mosque restrict who can or cannot enter their premises based on attire, sex, religious orientation etc? If so, we have the seeds of sharia law in our society. And there are millions who fled their countries just for this reason.

Seriously, as you conservatives love to remind everyone, there is religious freedom in the US. Do Christians restrict what people can do and wear in their facilities? Yes, they do. Any restrictions on gay people? Uh yeah, I think so.
There are a couple of thousand mosques in the US, with the oldest one dating to the late 19th century. We seem to have managed not to adopt sharia law.
As for people fleeing other countries, don't they come here for religious liberty? Including the freedom to practice Islam, if they wish? Yes, they do.
God bless America.

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swampy
Grace..."Because after all, we're just as theocratic as they are, right?"

Because after all, they are just as tolerant as we are.

You don't strike me as particularly tolerant. Not sure you should be saying "we."

The catholic Church sure does a damned good job of keeping the gay pedophile priests out.
What a nutter.

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Grace62

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swampy
Grace..."Because after all, we're just as theocratic as they are, right?"

Because after all, they are just as tolerant as we are.

You don't strike me as particularly tolerant. Not sure you should be saying "we."

Are you saying that the Saudi's would allow a temple or a cathedral to be built in Median or Mecca? My "we" encompasses all faiths other than Islam. I was not being exclusionary.

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If you don't stand for something, you'll probably fall for anything.t

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Dakota
Seriously, can a mosque restrict who can or cannot enter their premises based on attire, sex, religious orientation etc? If so, we have the seeds of sharia law in our society.

...And it all started with the YMCA, the Boy Scouts and every private men's or women's club ever.

Private organizations can practice discrimination whenever they'd like in the privacy of their own property. "Freedom of association." That's part of what makes America great.

...But it seems you prefer a form of socialism.

Maybe you should find another country, Trotskyite.

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swampy

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Grace62

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swampy
Grace..."Because after all, we're just as theocratic as they are, right?"

Because after all, they are just as tolerant as we are.

You don't strike me as particularly tolerant. Not sure you should be saying "we."

Are you saying that the Saudi's would allow a temple or a cathedral to be built in Median or Mecca? My "we" encompasses all faiths other than Islam. I was not being exclusionary.

I am saying that your original statement, that we should wait until the Saudis allow a Christian or Jewish facility in their holy cities, is intolerant. Were you just joking?

And are you saying we should behave like the Saudis?

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swampy
I think we should hold out until the Muslims to let a Jewish temple or Catholic cathedral be built in Mecca or Medina.

And when did Manhattan become a religious center? Unless your point is that the US worships the almighty dollar, I don't think there's any comparison. However I do recognize that this is a popular talking point from the opponents, so it was bound to be parroted here at some point.

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You can't go into a Mormon temple unless you are a Morrmon and yet it doesn't seem to have resulted in the beginning of "mormon law" in this country.

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This was no doubt an enormous PR error on the part of whomever decided to build this center so close (and remember, it is not ON, merely close) to the former site of the Twin Towers.

That said, the objections to it are purely emotional and this means that to stop it we are going to have to agree that things that make people sad are not allowed to be built. Which in turn means the opponents are going to have to support every environmentalist group and every preservation group that is offended by new construction.

I just want y'all to realize what position you are espousing here, since I don't think you are aware of it.

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I don't think swampy is on board with that Freedom of Religion thing the United States was founded on.

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Dennis S
I don't think swampy is on board with that Freedom of Religion thing the United States was founded on.

Sounds like swampy is all in favor of Freedom of her Religion, other religions not so much.

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Fox News: Best comedy channel that isn't a comedy channel.

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Dakota

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Acer

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Dakota
-How did they come in possession of that building in the first place?
-How much did it cost and who paid? For that location it must cost a fortune.
-Do they plan to tear it down?
-What will it look like? An office building or a traditional mosque?
-Who will build it? Which union shop will actually swing the hammer for it?
-What will it cost and who will pay for it?
-Is it open to all faiths? Meaning can women just walk in? How about gays?

Irrelevant. As long as it meets code and zoning regs, the rest is really none of your business.

Anything to avoid the questions. The fact that you are not the least bit curious just shows where you are coming from. Keep hiding behind zoning laws.

Your property questions could be answered with public records, it's not exactly secret.
And here's a good interview with the guy who is the CEO of the developer of the center...answers a lot of the questions here. This place is not just a mosque, the community center will be open to the public.
[blog.beliefnet.com]

from the interview with Soho Properties CEO and developer of the Park51 center, Sharif el-Gamal:


"Imam Feisal has been a champion of pluralism and tolerance. He fully understands the enormity of 9-11. In fact his own congregation was only blocks away from Ground Zero. He works very hard, day in and day out, to fight extremism and radicalism.

More to the point, this is going to be a community center. Park51 is not a political organization. We do not have a political agenda, and we will be open to all New Yorkers. What we do not have room for are extremist views and opinions. Radical and hateful agendas will have no place in our community center or in the mosque. We are building this center for New York City, because we're New Yorkers. We're Americans. We have families here and futures here.

On September 11, 2001, I went down to the site of the attacks and spent two days handing out water to first responders and other victims. Hundreds of Muslims died on that day. New Yorkers of all faiths and no faiths died together. There are also hundreds of Muslims in our police force and fire department and many Muslims who volunteered to help the injured and the hurt. One of my close friends, a Muslim and a New Yorker, headed down to Ground Zero after the attacks, and helped set up a triage.

She was buried in the rubble when the towers collapsed, but she was dug out, thank God, and went right back to work. We understand the horror of that day because we lived it. Terrorists attacked our city and our country, and terrorists have continued to threaten our city and our country. We're proud of the many Muslims who have worked with our fellow Americans to keep our city and country safe."

Does it seem like The Right is just a bunch of fraidy cats about everything?

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swampy
Are you saying that the Saudi's would allow a temple or a cathedral to be built in Median or Mecca?

Why do you allow the Saudi's to dictate your own actions?

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Dakota
If so, we have the seeds of sharia law in our society.

How in the world do you arrive at that conclusion? Can you begin to explain your reasoning? Is there any meaning to it?

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Dennis S

Dennis, thanks for nearly making me spit my coffee all over my iMac.

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Dennis S
Does it seem like The Right is just a bunch of fraidy cats about everything?

Sometimes it does seem that way, what with calls to repeal both the 14th and 17th amendments, based on fear and distrust.
Well except for the gun thing.
Lots of constitutional courage there.

NRA gun instructor shoots student by accident

"Well except for the gun thing."

Why do they want their guns? Simple. Because they're afraid.

(Full disclosure: I have guns.)

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$tevie

I just want y'all to realize what position you are espousing here, since I don't think you are aware of it.

Why would they start now ?

: -)

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Dakota
Seriously, can a mosque restrict who can or cannot enter their premises based on attire, sex, religious orientation etc? If so, we have the seeds of sharia law in our society. And there are millions who fled their countries just for this reason.

when my son and i visited St Patrick's Cathedral in NYC, he wasn't allowed to enter until he removed his baseball cap. damn catholics!

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graylocks

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Dakota
Seriously, can a mosque restrict who can or cannot enter their premises based on attire, sex, religious orientation etc? If so, we have the seeds of sharia law in our society. And there are millions who fled their countries just for this reason.

when my son and i visited St Patrick's Cathedral in NYC, he wasn't allowed to enter until he removed his baseball cap. damn catholics!

If the mosque ordered women to remove articles of closing before entering I'll be all for them.

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After you discover you're riding a dead horse, your best strategy is to dismount.

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Doc

Private organizations can practice discrimination whenever they'd like in the privacy of their own property. "Freedom of association." That's part of what makes America great.

Freedom of association is long dead. How many private clubs can decide their members want to only "associate" with whites? How many clubs are sued to accept women as members? Which club can exclude gays? The best that you guys could find was to make a boy take off his baseball cap. Pathetic.

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After you discover you're riding a dead horse, your best strategy is to dismount.

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Dakota

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Doc

Private organizations can practice discrimination whenever they'd like in the privacy of their own property. "Freedom of association." That's part of what makes America great.

Freedom of association is long dead. How many private clubs can decide their members want to only "associate" with whites?
Forest Lake Club, Columbia, SC. (among it's members, a guy the GOP tried to make party chair, Katon Dawson. Oops.)
in fact, most every country club in the south that I'm familiar with


How many clubs are sued to accept women as members?
all men's clubs? Augusta National Golf Club, they were sued, they don't admit women.
There are plenty of boys clubs still around. No worries.


Which club can exclude gays?
Boy Scouts of America
US Military (ok not a club, but you get the idea)
Catholic priests
Baptists preachers, etc.

The best that you guys could find was to make a boy take off his baseball cap. Pathetic.
Oh, that was just a little joke to get you going.