Well, “really interesting” may have been an understatement. The designer called me back after receiving my email, and was rightfully upset about her data in essence being unscrupulously sold by CUSA. See following for prior update;

[forums.macresource.com]

The designer had no knowledge of “P.M.”, and it turns out, had no knowledge of the CUSA MDD. In December of 2003, she had taken her cube into CUSA when she bought a PC from them, and had them [try to] transfer the data from her cube to the new PC. Evidently CUSA used the MDD as middleware, and never deleted her data from it! …and also never told her about it!

After talking to the designer for about twenty minutes on my cell phone from the car on the way home from the airport (yes, I pulled over to the side on the road to talk), I called AppleCare when I got back, and spoke with Walter. Walter reviewed the ever-lengthening case notes, and confirmed the info I found last Thursday regarding “P.M.” tracked with what they had on record. He also told me that Apple resellers have a six-month window within which to re-register a machine that is brought back. Walter surmised that “P.M.” was a customer that had returned the MDD shortly after purchase, which was then converted to a CUSA machine, whereupon the MDD obviously missed its window of opportunity to be re-registered. Walter agreed that I definitely did not get what I had “bought” at CUSA.

Walter ultimately transferred me to Ali in Customer Relations, who also agreed that I had not gotten what was indicated on CUSA’s receipt that she had in front of her, from when I had faxed it in over a month ago. I explained to Ali that the designer was hopping mad that her data had been wrongfully copied, kept, and sold by an Apple reseller, and that I was also hopping mad that an Apple reseller had scammed me with a fraudulent sale of Apple products.

Ali, like her predecessors, tried to pin the blame solely on CUSA. I told her that Apple should take some (at least a fair share) of the responsibility, as the sale involved both an Apple computer and an Apple warranty service contract, by an Apple authorized reseller, and that as Apple was the company whose products their authorized reseller was fraudulently selling to the public; Apple should do (i), whatever it takes to keep Apple authorized resellers from fraudulently selling Apple products to the public, and (ii) do whatever it takes to make things right for any customers victimized by their authorized resellers fraudulent actions. For Apple not to do so is tantamount to Apple condoning CUSA’s fraudulent actions.

I expect the designer will be talking to her attorney shortly, and hopefully we can jointly parade into CUSA with a video camera rolling to effect resolution for us. After all that has happened, I want to make sure the record is accurate. I offered to bring my cordless drill with us to CUSA so the designer (and CUSA manager) could see the drive with her data be rendered useless (I’m 99.999% sure the drive is bad anyway, so we wouldn’t be drilling a good drive). If CUSA copied the designer’s data onto the MDD without telling her, where else did they put her data without telling her? was it sold to anyone else?

I let Ali know that CUSA’s actions were not making friends or positively influencing people, and that I have already been posting the saga to the internet (here) while awaiting resolution. Walter offered to try to get the warranty date updated to match my purchase. I told him I wanted a new machine, and things made as right as possible for the designer. After expressing my sentiments to Ali, she has offered only to review what additional information I will fax to her later tonight, and to talk to the CUSA manager tomorrow (Wednesday), to try to get CUSA to make things right.

I bought the CUSA MDD to fulfill a consulting need at the time of purchase, but before I could ready the machine for its intended deployment, some other, older, machines had problems resulting in the purchase of four new eMacs. That delayed putting the CUSA MDD into service while the client absorbed the costs related to the eMacs (OS and application migration, etc.), which were subsequently followed by the purchase of two new minis and two more eMacs for the client (plus I bought another eMac for my kid). Apple is the big winner here; nine more machines in about a year were put into service while the MDD I had every reason to believe was minimally used, fully operational, and fully warranted, sat patiently awaiting its turn in the limelight. When its turn came, Apple and its reseller have thus far repeatedly dropped the ball.

I suspect Ali, and her AppleCare/Customer Relations superiors will be reading this tomorrow (Wednesday) before calling the manager at CUSA, as this post’s link will be in my fax. I have asked Apple and CUSA to replace their fraudulently sold tower with a new one, and make amends to the others effected by CUSA’s fraudulent actions. Thus far the results have only been to be stonewalled for six weeks. So, please reply away, as this time the people that can actually do something to make things right, might be paying attention. Thanks again for your prior replies and support, and keep an eye out for Follow-Up, Part D; hopefully it will be a happy ending.

Buzz
==

Part I – Beginning of Saga [forums.macresource.com]
Part VI – End of Saga w/ Replies [forums.macresource.com]
Follow-Up, Part A [forums.macresource.com]
Follow-Up, Part B [forums.macresource.com]

What a great story. Not that I liked them before, but I will certainly will not buy a computer from CompUSA in the future after reading this.

Hope you get what you deserve, as well as CUSA.

Where did the 5 previous AppleCare incidents on this machine come from if not P.M. (which is what the AppleCare guy told you). Either two P.M.'s are involved in this story or AppleCare guy made stuff up?

What am I missing here?

CUSA sells you an open box Mac.

AppleCare takes your money.

CUSA promises a three year warranty.

Turns out AppleCare will only cover machine for two years.

CUSA owes you another year of warranty coverage and will do so, but only in house (at CUSA).

-----

You are mad at CUSA becasue the can't (or won't) get AppleCare to make good on this.

AppleCare has a long history of screwing people and seeminly not really caring. Good luck with them.

What can CUSA do if AppleCare won't do anything?

ADent,

CUSA sells open box Mac w/ AppleCare as condition of sale on 10/8/04, and add'l condition that CUSA registers Mac and AppleCare, showing Mac serial # tied to AppleCare SKU on receipt. CUSA promised AppleCare good through 10/7/07. AppleCare is good at any authorized Apple repair dealer. AppleCare must be registered within one year from date of purchase. CUSA did not disclose prior sale to someone else on or about 9/13/03, or CUSA's use to store data harvested from another CUSA customer in 12/03, whom they also didn't tell their data was harvested. The machine's true history (including P.M.'s 5 incidents) and effective age were misrepresented and not disclosed. Apple's and CUSA's records bear this out, and both CUSA and AppleCare are going out of their way to make it difficult to discover information about the machine that I am clearly entitled to. The machine was also clearly not eligible for the AppleCare CUSA conditioned the sale on. The sale was patently fraudulent. Yes, the machine sat basically idle for a year after purchase, and because it was idle, I did not discover the existence of the fraud until the end of last month, and the extent of the fraud is still being unravelled. While I'm still hoping for a peaceful resolution to this matter, a publicly documented chronology of the attempts to resolve it should help me, and the other victims of CUSA's fraud and Apple acquiescence thereto, should things turn ugly.

Buzz

---

Sometimes it is what it is...
and then there's times when it's really better.



==

I have no constitution to read a book like this, but I can tell you that my CompUSA story ended with me turning one Mac into three; practically for FREE. I then turned around and sold one of them to Sun (microsystems) for way more that it was worth AND they paid $120 to overnight it to them.

still have the other TWO Macs from that CompUSA 'deal'.

Buzz,

Not to sound pissy, but your first thread resulted in all the ammo you needed to have this resolved with one phone call.

your state's Atty General's Office & County Prosecutor ----FRAUD.

open box should be a computer that was opened and returned with in couple days , his machine was returned and used as a test station in the repair center .

Wow!

This story pretty much matches mine.

I bought a dual 2.0 G5 rev b from CUSA in June 2005 as an open box. I was assured by the store's in-house Apple rep with whom I'm friendly, that while the box was open, the computer had never been sold or even left the store.

Shortly after I bought this G5, I called Apple with a technical question. At this time they registered my computer for Apple Care and sent me a confirming letter which showed I had Apple Care until Sept 2007, based on a purchase date of September 2004.

This was instead of June 2008 which would have been three years from my actual date of purchase in June of 2005.

When I objected, I was told that my computer's serial number showed as having been repaired under Apple Care in September 2004.

CUSA claims that their records show no work done on my computer and have attempted to reset the Apple Care sale date but have been unsuccessful so far.

These attempts to reset the Apple Care date have included my twice faxing a copy of my sales receipt to Apple at their request plus numerous visits to CUSA,also with my receipt which they too faxed to Apple.

While this was going on I discovered that the front FW port wasn't functioning and the subsequent repair by CUSA required the replacement of the logic board.

My last contact, over a week ago, with Apple was with a senior Customer Relations rep who was supposed to "fix" the dating and get me some sort of compensation for my trouble.

I have yet to hear back from him and he has not respond to two voicemail messages I left at his extension.

The worst part is that when I run into a "glitch of some sort I can't tell if it is do to a inherent problem with my computer due to a defect or if it is a "normal" hardware or software problem.

The CUSA store general manager met my request for some sort of compensation for all my inconvenience with an offer of $100.

I am wondering what to do next?

I think that both Apple and CUSA are going to try and use the fact that you let the computer lay idle for a year before bringing it to their attention as an "out" on this.
They are going to claim that your lack of timliness has exacerbated the problem and they would have taken care of it a year ago but now it's too late.
From your point of view, it's clearly a fraudulent sale. However, they will claim that it was your obligation to report it earlier in order to mitigate the "damages".
Please keep us updated on this saga.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2006 01:37PM by richorlin.

Seems to me that anything you get out of Apple is going to be gravy-- just them being nice or whatever, or perhaps doing some arm twisting on your behalf.
The real villain in your tale is CUSA, and as has been pointed out earlier, they made a fraudulent sale. If this was simply a paperwork error, they *should* be more than happy to make it right somehow; if it was a deliberate fraud, they should be frantically trying to make it right whether they're happy about it or not. Can't really understand what CUSA's position is here; just what the hell are they trying to do?

<Can't really understand what CUSA's position is here; just what the hell are they trying to do?

As little as humanly possible... that's what they'r trying to do.



Keep after 'em Buzz!

---

Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.
--

--

--
Eureka, CA

richorlin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think that both Apple and CUSA are going to try and use the fact that you let the computer lie
> idle for a year before bringing it to their attention as an "out" on this.
> They are going to claim that your lack of timliness has exacerbated the problem and they
> would have taken care of it a year ago but now it's too late.

I don't think they can use this. There is nothing in letting the machine sit idle that changed either the condition of the machine or the fraud on the part of CUSA. Nothing expired, time-wise. The Apple-Care was non-existant from the time of sale because CUSA let it time out before they sold the machine. Regardless of the fact that it was a condition of sale. And nothing changed hardware-wise. So I think if they try to pull this, it is a complete red herring.

Buzz... you've probably done this, but you should put a literal timeline together showing everything you know about the MDD. This will also help you determine where the gaps in the story are.

Also, put together a complete diary of the events (most of it is here! <G> ) with all of the names, dates, times and everything so that you can quickly recount any portion of who you talked to when and what they said and so that you'll have your thoughts and perceptions documented.

Finally, if I recall correctly, you have a backup of the designer's and P.M's stuff from the MDD drive. Maybe she'd like a copy of that?

---

Don't ask who the bell's for, dude. It's you.

Buzz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
I expect the designer will be talking to her attorney shortly, and hopefully we can jointly parade into CUSA with a video camera rolling to effect resolution for us. After all that has happened, I want to make sure the record is accurate. I offered to bring my cordless drill with us to CUSA so the designer (and CUSA manager) could see the drive with her data be rendered useless (I’m 99.999% sure the drive is bad anyway, so we wouldn’t be drilling a good drive). If CUSA copied the designer’s data onto the MDD without telling her, where else did they put her data without telling her? was it sold to anyone else?

I recommend refraining from destroying the original hard drive with the designer's data; both the drive and the data could be required as evidence at some point in the future. You may consider the drive to be "bad," but chances are a professional data recovery service would be able to access the data present on the drive. In the event of a trial or mediation, it's quite likely such an attempt would be made.

---

It is what it is.

jimmypoo- we're in CA, and unfortunately fraud is so rampant that a case like this will stay under the radar unless something is done to get it up on the screen. When I first posted, I had no idea the designer's data was on the machine, or that P.M. had purchased and returned the machine after multiple AppleCare incidents, or that CUSA had used it their service department. The AppleCare entry w/ the MDD serial # attached to it on the receipt clearly evidences this. It took me half a dozen calls before AppleCare gave me hints about what they knew from their own system all along. The calls have been made, and the more story evolves and the more it is seen here and elsewhere, the sooner it WILL be up on the radar and be resolved.

GeneL- I'm sensing a theme here; not that I'd want to start it, but I'd certainly give consideration to joining a class action lawsuit for victims in our situation... I wonder how many more like us there are...? fwiw, one of the four eMacs (alluded to above) I bought at a more user friendly Apple reseller had similar story, though it fit within Apple's guidelines and was resolved quickly. The unit had been sold, and used, for 2 or 3 days, about 2 months prior to my purchase, and was part of an Apple bulk sale of edu overrun machines, meaning it was older stock. The unit worked, but booted into somebody else's profile out of the box. When I went to erase the drive, and reinstall the system, there were some problems; so I took it back, and raised a bit of a stink w/ the reseller. After a couple of days in the shop, it turned out to be bad install CD's, which AppleCare replaced upon faxing them a copy of the repair receipt, and the warranty date was also reset properly. Add'l moral here, was that in part because of this, I wasn't expecting such grief w/ the CUSA MDD.

richorlin- thanks to sscutchen for addressing your concerns, and don't worry; the updates will keep coming unless I get at least a new G5 quad AND a new 15" PowerBook w/ full three years of AppleCare and at least 4GB & 2GB RAM respectively to resolve this matter in conjunction w/ a confidentiality agreement until then, the details will be readily available.

S.Taylor- how can it not be deliberate fraud? MacMall was able to the warranty date out of the "GSX" database in a few seconds, and the history of the machine tracks exclusively to CUSA. What they're trying to do, as Paul F. says, is wait until this gets bright enough on the radar screen that they have to do something.

N-OS X-tasy!- It was the designer's request that the drive be destroyed, I merely offered my cordless drill, and to find a helper w/ a video camera to confirm that the request was clearly made to CUSA, and that her data was destroyed so CUSA could not resell it again. I made a copy of the drive, as best I could, on Thursday after picking the machine up from MacMall, not knowing the extent of, or whose, data was on it (the radar screen metaphor). The machine and the drive were too unstable to use, but it was quickly obvious that many clues to getting to the bottom of this mess were contained on the drive. Without a copy, my fear was that taking the machine back to CUSA could likely result in their replacing or erasing the drive, and claiming that nothing was wrong w/ the original. Thus far the data I was able to discover on the copy has provided the most leverage. While a professional data recovery service would probably be able to access more of the data than I was able to retrieve, I'm quite confident I did get more than enough data to suffice, "in the event of a trial or mediation...". In the mean time, I'm still convinced the drive is bad, and that even if it were successfully nuked and repaved, it would prematurely fail again shortly thereafter. The value of what is now a two and half year old drive, is the data contained on it, not the mechanism, and it should be destroyed.

Thanks again to all for following this saga,

Buzz

You'd make a hell of an investigative reporter Buzz.

The key to resolving this quickly will be what the AppleCare representative/Customer Relations rep(s) say, and/or do when they talk/fax/communicate with the CompUSA Manager. Your tale of discovery of this patently fraudulent sale by CompUSA is apparently nothing new, as far as "sales policies" at CompUSA stores, in general...as GeneL's story reeks of a similar misrepresented/potentially fraudulent sale. However...

You're the possessor of the evidence, the defective PowerMac, and you should be preserving the machine in its pristine state, not offering to "destroy" the HDrive with a cordless drill. That is just plain ridiculous. Don't do this. You mean well, by offering to do that for the benefit of the designer's peace of mind re her data being on that HDrive, but it's not in your best interest to mess with important evidence. Should this fraud come to the attention of your local county/city District Attorney's office, or the California State attorney general, at some point, they're going to want that machine INTACT, as sold to you and represented as "an open box return."

Same thoughts go for filing a lawsuit against CompUSA by you, or your lawyer. The machine needs to be in its sold and configured state, not modified in any way, no HDrive replacement etc. Stop the presses on the idea of destroying the HDrive. Do not go, do not pass or proceed in that direction. Keep the machine pristine.

So far, so good, as for your efforts at resolving the situation, but things are coming to a head quickly now. It's important that your resolve remains strong, and you keep a clear and unbiased outlook toward your goal of having CompUSA replace the defective/fraudulently sold PowerMac with a brand new equivalent G5, plus any other compensation that the hammer brings down on CompUSA. I say you're entitled to the new computer AND monetary ($$$) damages. And CompUSA needs to be brought to justice for their patently fraudulent sale, both in Civil and Criminal Court.

For those reasons, I think it's time you presented all of these facts, the timeline, the chronology, the details of the fraud to either the District Attorney's Office, or the State Attorney General's Office. You've given CompUSA and Apple Computer plenty of time and opportunity to figure out that the heavy hand of the law could come into play. You haven't been offered a damn thing by anyone up to now, and now is time enough IMO.
You have all the ammo and guns to blow CompUSA out of the water in this blatant, fraudulent consumer sale, and I'd suggest that you get some help from the powers that be.

As for your own interests, file a Small Claims action against CompUSA in your local court, as I've advised you before, for $10,000 or more; ask for compensatory and punitive damages because of all the factors above. Have the Sheriff/Police serve CompUSA's manager (after filing the papers, and the fee for service, it's usually done within 72 hours in my county, for example); or if you have a friend/relative who'll do the serving, go that route. To solve this dilemma time is of the essence, and the more heat you bring down on CompUSA the quicker things will be resolved.

You're doing great. Now get down to some nasty, dirty, legal business and hammer CompUSA into submission.

______________

---

What's the difference between reality and fiction? Fiction has to make some sense.

Unfortunately, small claims doesn't award compensatory damages, in my experience.

richorlin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think that both Apple and CUSA are going to try
> and use the fact that you let the computer lay
> idle for a year before bringing it to their
> attention as an "out" on this.
> They are going to claim that your lack of
> timliness has exacerbated the problem and they
> would have taken care of it a year ago but now
> it's too late.
> From your point of view, it's clearly a fraudulent
> sale. However, they will claim that it was your
> obligation to report it earlier in order to
> mitigate the "damages".
> Please keep us updated on this saga.
>
>
>
> Edited 1 times. Last edit at 01/18/06 11:37AM by
> richorlin.


Judges don't care. Small Claims filing window is 3 years from date of loss. The judge won't give a crap about CUSA's excuses. They fraudelently sold a used machine as "new"

If you were to file in Small Claims court, and CUSA didn't defend themselves in person, they would automatically lose. Unless you were a complete jerk to the judge and had not a single shred of evidence that is.

The filing fee is probably inder $30. I'll bet a summons served on the CUSA manager will get action within 24 hours.

It was an "Open Box", right?

That typically means it was a customer return due to did not want/changed mind, or it was busted. But to me it almost always means USED (otherwise they would seal it back up and call it New and not say anything or label it as a Demo).

Open Box = USED in most cases (IMHO).

Warranties typically start ticking on the day of original sale or they day the company finds out about original sale (ie when the product is registered).

I my case, yes it was an open box, but I was assured that it had never been sold or even been out of the store.

ADent- Yes, it was an "Open Box", what that may "typically" mean to you, and what CUSA specifically told me are two completely different animals; just like GeneL, I was assured that it had never been sold or even been out of the store. This was my first Mac purchase at a CUSA store, I had no history on which to base what "Open Box" means at CUSA, other than what they said at the time. MacMall lists everything on the label they use for open box/demo/returns/otherwise-not-new machines, including the effective registration date, warranty remaining, any missing media, cables, manuals or accessories, and any known physical or operational defects. Most, if not all, of the major internet dealers also disclose significant information about not-new Apple products they sell.

Since it was an "Open Box", and it was intended for client use at the time of purchase, I asked specifically about the registration and warranty. I was told that while it had been opened, and lightly used in the store, that it had not been registered to an end user, so that with the concurrent purchase of AppleCare, the MDD would be covered through October 2007. At the time, CUSA's insisting on handling the registration seemed no different than Apple's own "auto-enroll" feature for AppleCare purchased concurrent with their hardware products, including refurbs (that Apple tells nothing specific about, because they warrant them).

I, too, am used to the date on the purchase receipt being used for warranty eligibility purposes, if there is ever a question concerning it. However, CUSA represented to me that their sale to me was the "original sale", and they were handling "the day the company [Apple] finds out about original sale (ie when the product is registered)", by conditioning the sale on their handling the AppleCare registration. Again, it clearly shows this on the receipt.

I was at CUSA at 8:30 PM at night, w/ my then 9 year old son, three weeks after my mother's funeral, barely a week after cleaning out her apartment in the assisted living facility where she spent the last nearly three years of her life. While cleaning out her dresser, we found $55 in loose small bills, that we said the kid could spend on "presents from Granny" for himself. By the time we got to CUSA, he had already spent $25 elsewhere, and had $30 left. While I was "registering" the MDD at the CUSA point of sale, my kid brought up a Pokemon video game which we "price-checked", that turned out to be $40, rather than the $30 that he thought (hoped?), so I told him he had to either get one of the other "flavor" Pokemon games that was marked $30, or less, or use his own $10 to make up the difference, or save the $30 until we went to Fry's or Toys 'R' Us the next time. He opted for the latter (the "duplicate" receipt obtained from CUSA 12/5/2005 shows the Pokemon game coming and going).

What I'm really saying here ADent, is that my frame of mind at the time, was not to doubt the veracity of what appeared to be nothing more than a straight forward purchase as it was being represented by CUSA that evening. Unfortunately, it has turned out that what was represented was false, what was sold was fraudulent, and that the sole beneficiaries of the false representations and fraudulent sale, both CUSA and Apple, have been evasive and manipulative trying to delay and/or avoid having to make things right.

---

Sometimes it is what it is...
and then there's times when it's really better.



==

I don't recall from earlier posts, but have you escalated the issue up the CUSA heirarchy? It might help to approach the mothership.

S.Taylor- mothership approached repeatedly: access deflected/denied.
Continued attempts in progress...

---

Sometimes it is what it is...
and then there's times when it's really better.



==

I too am not much for book reading when it comes to threads, so my eyes glazed over more than once.

Just remember that in CA, fraud requires proof of intent. In small claims court (where there are no compensatory or punative damages awarded for pain and suffering) you get no benefit of a lawyer present, so the judge can more easily rule whether there is intent or not.

If this were to go to court, I wouldn't expect much more than Apple is already willing to give you.

And I don't see what a judge would consider as Apple's culpability.

---

I am that Masked Man.

Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

I've been to the edge of the map, and there be monsters.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody counts or nobody counts.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.